Jesse Hirsh engages in a thought-provoking dialogue with John Wolfstone, centered on the concept of community in today's increasingly fragmented world. As they explore the notion of intentional communities, John shares insights from his experiences at Tamera, a thriving polyamorous village in Portugal that emerged from the trauma of fascism in Europe. The conversation delves into how communities can serve as a counterbalance to rising authoritarianism and alienation in society, emphasizing the need for inclusivity and solidarity among diverse groups. John articulates that true community goes beyond mere friendship; it is about shared responsibility and mutual care, where individuals support one another irrespective of their differences. This exploration also touches on the importance of vulnerability as a strength, suggesting that acknowledging one’s loneliness can pave the way for deeper connections and healing in a society plagued by loneliness and division.
The dialogue navigates the complexities of modern identity politics and the dangers of othering, particularly in North America, where political affiliations often define community boundaries. Jesse and John discuss how the rise of fascism is linked to a culture of exclusion and fear, highlighting the urgent need to cultivate spaces that embrace diversity and foster understanding. Through their exchange, they articulate a vision of community that not only engages with the current socio-political landscape but actively seeks to transcend it. John posits that embracing our differences and entering conversations with an open heart can lead to transformative changes in how we relate to one another. The episode serves as a rallying cry for individuals to step into their power, recognizing that the act of building community is an essential response to the crises of our time.
The conversation culminates in John's upcoming summit, 'Fugitive Futures,' which aims to gather thought leaders and community builders to explore regenerative culture and collective healing. This event is framed as an opportunity to engage with the uncertainties of the future, encouraging participants to share their grief, hopes, and visions for a better world. John emphasizes that the summit is not merely about answers but about creating a space for dialogue and experimentation in the face of societal challenges. As they reflect on the potential for communities to emerge from the shadows of despair, Jesse and John inspire listeners to envision a future where solidarity and empathy reign, and where the power of community becomes a transformative agent for change. The episode ultimately leaves audiences with a sense of hope and a call to action, inviting them to participate in the ongoing journey toward a more connected and just society.
Takeaways:
#podmatch
https://thevillageoflovers.com
https://thevillageoflovers.com/summit
a:5:{s:22:"transcription_uploaded";s:4:"file";s:18:"transcription_html";s:91:"https://transcripts.captivate.fm/transcript/a8257ec9-c06e-4901-965a-24c4ada1999c/index.html";s:18:"transcription_file";s:95:"https://transcripts.captivate.fm/transcript/a8257ec9-c06e-4901-965a-24c4ada1999c/transcript.srt";s:18:"transcription_json";s:96:"https://transcripts.captivate.fm/transcript/a8257ec9-c06e-4901-965a-24c4ada1999c/transcript.json";s:18:"transcription_text";s:61542:"Jesse Hirsch 00:00:01
Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsch.
Jesse Hirsch 00:00:03
Welcome to Metaviews, recorded live in front of an automated audience.
Jesse Hirsch 00:00:12
And today we're gonna talk about what I think is a crucial subject of our times, the power of community and the role that community can play, not just in connecting us with our humanity, our nature, but forging a better society.
Jesse Hirsch 00:00:30
Now, you know, this is where I should start, John, by telling you we have a few segments that are meant as kind of icebreakers to start the show.
Jesse Hirsch 00:00:38
Although I'm going to do something with you now that I haven't done with any other guest, which is to give you a bit of context on our audience, because on the one hand, I would say the majority of our audience is not American.
Jesse Hirsch 00:00:54
And that's important because America has very rigid narratives and meaning when it comes to words.
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:01
And I would say we're more diverse in that regard.
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:06
But we also have a lot of people in our audience, my parents in particular, but others as well, who have experience in intentional communities, who have spent time living.
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:18
In my parents case, it was in the seventies in northern Ontario in the bush with a lot of others.
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:25
Again, these are people either in the boomer generation or younger, who have had some experience in the kind of intentional communities that we will be discussing on today's episode.
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:36
So I wanted to kind of prime you and say you can go into advanced mode, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:42
You can eschew the normal, this is what's going on, and get to the synthesis of what you think is important, what you want to share, and we'll get into perhaps a more in depth conversation as a result.
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:55
But we like to start every episode of Meta Views with the news, partly because we publish our own daily newsletter.
Jesse Hirsch 00:02:04
And today's issue is what we're phrasing as AI nationalism.
Jesse Hirsch 00:02:09
And we're sort of looking at the way in which the new Trump administration has really aligned themselves with big tech, and how normally in an inauguration, the seats that are reserved for key governors were occupied by the CEOs of the big technology company.
Jesse Hirsch 00:02:29
So we're trying to flesh out this concept that nationalism seems paradoxical, contradictory in the age of the Internet, and yet it seems that AI is being used to bolster it, to amplify it.
Jesse Hirsch 00:02:43
This is something, again, we encourage our listeners and readers to check out.
Jesse Hirsch 00:02:47
But the real purpose of this segment, John, is to offer our guest an opportunity to share some news that they've heard.
Jesse Hirsch 00:02:54
Could be personal news, could be professional news, could be world news.
Jesse Hirsch 00:03:00
The goal here, on an intuitive level, is to ask the question, is there something that you're paying attention to that you think other people should know about, and in particular, that our audience should know about.
John 00:03:14
Yeah, yeah.
John 00:03:15
Thank you.
John 00:03:16
I mean, obviously, there's so many things happening right now on the planet, especially in my country here with Trump coming into power.
John 00:03:26
You know, the thing that has caught my eye more than anything in kind of also the same context, what you shared is Trump's sweeping pardons for the January 6th rioters, many of whom were complicit in killing law enforcement officers.
John 00:03:48
And I'd say that for, like, me, you know, your podcast is called Meta Views.
John 00:03:52
We, like, made a film about a very meta existential situation.
John 00:03:56
And, you know, as somebody who is a American who's also Jewish, it is definitely striking the resemblance between Trump Musk and what is happening and Nazism and Hitler back in the 30s.
John 00:04:12
And it feels like in one swoop, Trump freed all of his main, very criminal cronies who I think that is not just like him keeping a campaign promise, but it's him strategically trying to place people in the public in certain realms of his influence so that he can hold on to power even beyond what might be legal or ethical or normal for a president of the United States to, like, do.
John 00:04:44
He's actually putting people in power in the populace to keep kind of a enforcement of his code.
John 00:04:51
And I think we're on a very wild ride of what this fascist rise is and how that's also going to create a counter effect of community.
John 00:04:59
And really, I also trust it's part of a bigger design of earth towards us going towards healing.
John 00:05:06
But this is a moment of maximum polarization.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:10
Well, and, you know, ironically, that's part of why we put the news out front, because you start with the bad news, and hopefully we get to the positive and the feeling better what we got to do about this stuff later in the show.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:22
But specifically what I read it the same way.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:26
He's creating brown shirts, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:28
He's creating this type of vigilante fascist force.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:33
And the example, like they stated, the administration stated they wanted to target Chicago as kind of the pilot project for ICE raids, Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:42
And for deportations.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:44
But because they said that before they did it, a lot of activists in Chicago, a lot of municipal officials in Chicago are preventing it.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:52
Right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:53
They got the jump.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:54
They've been able to, through their own political will, but also through legal means, prevent these raids from happening place and prevent these deportations from happening.
Jesse Hirsch 00:06:04
But to your point, if you have paralegal forces, if you have illegal militias that don't care about what ICE is going to do, but will target immigrants in Chicago or target marginalized people in Chicago.
Jesse Hirsch 00:06:20
From a policy perspective, it accomplishes the same thing.
Jesse Hirsch 00:06:23
So it is, you're quite correct, a really scary precedent of the way in which this regime is going to use outside of government forces and authority to terrorize people to try to enforce their will.
Jesse Hirsch 00:06:35
So our second segment is what we call wtf, which is what's the future?
Jesse Hirsch 00:06:45
Because we are a future centric podcast, we try to empower people to anticipate what's coming next.
Jesse Hirsch 00:06:53
And so we like to ask our guests, what is something about the future that you've got your eyes on that is part of your event horizon that you want our audience to know about?
Jesse Hirsch 00:07:04
And this is where I will disclose.
Jesse Hirsch 00:07:06
We tend to have the position that the future is largely fictional.
Jesse Hirsch 00:07:10
It's a target, a goal that we aim for, but the process is the purpose.
Jesse Hirsch 00:07:15
Right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:07:16
It's the journey that matters.
Jesse Hirsch 00:07:18
So in this sense, indulge in your imagination.
Jesse Hirsch 00:07:21
But at the same time, we're looking for an intuitive answer of, you know, for you, John, where do you see the future?
John 00:07:28
Yeah.
John 00:07:28
Thank you.
John 00:07:29
You know, we're actually hosting a summit in two weeks called Fugitive Futures.
John 00:07:34
Far out.
John 00:07:35
Something we think about a lot.
John 00:07:38
And the future is also, like I said, it's fictional.
John 00:07:42
It is a story.
John 00:07:43
But I also have a quote on the end of my email that says the future will be built by those who can tell the most meaningful story that we can be a part of.
John 00:07:52
And at an almost like spiritual level, similar to what was happening around 2012, 2025 has been prophesied in various traditions as really the inflection point of this great turning towards hopefully global regenerative culture.
John 00:08:14
And that this year, as both the.
John 00:08:17
As both, the turning point is also going to be the height of crisis.
John 00:08:22
And I think, again, there's going to be that polarized, like, I think this year, in the very near future, I think things at Covid level and beyond are going to be happening maybe not all at once, but in different waves.
John 00:08:36
And I think, though, that because the public has lived through everything we've lived through, including a past Trump presidency, that not just the.
John 00:08:47
Not just the, like, other side, because I think it's actually a moment also of a lot more unity is going to be happening.
John 00:08:52
But I think there will be a response of people banding together in community at a organic level in a way never before seen.
John 00:09:02
Like, everybody I know wants community, even my, like, parents that are very not in the alternative world that I'm in And I think this year is going to be a tipping point of dominoes for things to really happen towards people being like, oh, now we actually need this.
John 00:09:17
And this is just the healthier way to, to, to like, live in every single regard.
John 00:09:23
So I see a lot of crisis and a lot of upwelling of like, connection and community happening that is actually bridging divides right on.
Jesse Hirsch 00:09:33
And, and you know, let me get you to unpack what you said at the start.
Jesse Hirsch 00:09:37
Only because we've always here at Metaviews had the philosophy that in a surveillance society we're all outlaws because 100% compliance with the law is impossible.
Jesse Hirsch 00:09:48
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:09:48
Like you see cars coming to rolling stops on stop signs, and there's always a kind of gray area that in an analog world we accepted, but in the digital world it's more a matter of enforcement.
Jesse Hirsch 00:10:02
So what was the summit you mentioned?
Jesse Hirsch 00:10:04
And can you unpack it a bit in terms of what its kind of mission or agenda is?
John 00:10:08
So this summit is really the integration space.
Jesse Hirsch 00:10:12
And remind me, the name, it was.
John 00:10:14
So good it blew my mind is Fugitive Futures.
John 00:10:18
And so this is coming out of the film we, like, made.
John 00:10:20
But actually we need to take the film and inspiration into really a global conversation.
John 00:10:26
And the idea of fugitive futures is that, you know, we've known for a while the world's messed up, things aren't quite right, out of balance.
John 00:10:34
And people have been trying very, I think the whole 2010 to 2020 where like people earnestly trying to make a change, we're going to stop the CO2 and all the things, right?
John 00:10:45
And yet not really on a big scale much change happened.
John 00:10:49
Things really just got in, some is worse.
John 00:10:51
And I think what we're recognizing is that the way we have tried to create change is still operating from some of the base narratives and paradigms that caused the problem to begin with.
John 00:11:05
So that actually any regenerative future is going to have to be more fugitive in that we're actually going to have to create more of a space of uncertainty, of not knowing of beginner's mind and really holding space for the shadow, for the grief, for the, for the like reckoning.
John 00:11:22
And from the not knowing, it isn't like, let's have a plan in charge.
John 00:11:25
It's like, hey, let's sit together and feel and talk and listen and be a little bit more unmade and unmoored.
John 00:11:34
And maybe from that unmaking we can become alive to new possibilities that we couldn't have otherwise.
John 00:11:41
That's what makes the future that's coming fugitive yes, it is not authorized.
John 00:11:46
This is not the mainstream status quo.
John 00:11:48
This is definitely something that we have to be willing to dance on the edges with and be uncomfortable with.
John 00:11:56
It will come from our capacity to hold discomfort.
John 00:12:00
The actual solutions will come.
Jesse Hirsch 00:12:03
Now, I have to say, John, I have been wanting to use these sound effects in an episode for as long as I've been podcasting.
Jesse Hirsch 00:12:10
And you are the first guest who has earned the reaction of our automated audience.
Jesse Hirsch 00:12:16
So more power to you and what we do.
Jesse Hirsch 00:12:20
I love the way in which, again, the news and the future are really a setup for.
Jesse Hirsch 00:12:25
For what is fundamentally our feature conversation, where our guest comes into our lair and settles down.
Jesse Hirsch 00:12:34
For each guest.
Jesse Hirsch 00:12:35
I take kind of three pillars that I want to use as the conversation to kind of weave it through.
Jesse Hirsch 00:12:41
And you've already teased out all three.
Jesse Hirsch 00:12:44
And again, this conversation does not have to be nonlinear.
Jesse Hirsch 00:12:48
It's ideally we take it where it goes.
Jesse Hirsch 00:12:51
But I thought the pillars of community and then Tamara, the community and then conflict would be a good way to kind of allow us to really get as deep as we can in the modest time that we have and give the audience a kind of provocation.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:07
Right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:07
For, as you said in our future segment to prepare for what's coming next.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:12
Because where I thought you were right on is while we are witnessing the ascendance of fascism and a kind of fascism that while comparable to Nazi Germany, I think potentially could be even worse, we are at the same time already seeing it's the future past it, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:31
And our substack is called the future of authority because we are living in authoritarianism.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:37
And God damn it, we need to see a future past that.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:39
Right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:40
And that is what I really heard in your narrative.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:43
And your point about the power of stories, I thought was also crucial.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:47
So let's start with community, because community strikes me as both one of the most powerful aspects of human organization.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:56
I like to say that we've evolved to live in community, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:00
That to be an individual is almost contrary to the hard wiring of our biology and our culture.
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:09
But you also said something in terms of everyone wants it, and I think they want it because it is so scarce.
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:15
We've become so alienated in the kind of late stage capitalism, especially as social media has kind of created this faux community, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:25
Or this fake community that again, speaks to our desire for it, but like junk food never allows us feeling satisfied, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:34
Or fulfilled.
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:36
So where to really get you to get into that big picture?
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:40
Where do you see community at this moment?
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:42
Right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:42
How.
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:42
How does it exist within not just the supply and demand of our economic centric society, but the culture of alienation.
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:51
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:51
The pandemic of loneliness that.
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:53
That a lot of people describe.
John 00:14:55
Yeah.
John 00:14:56
I mean, there's so many threads I want to touch on here.
John 00:14:58
I mean, one, yes.
John 00:14:59
Like, just by basic health, the reason everybody wants communities by basic health metrics.
John 00:15:05
It's clear, like, science has proven that social connection is like, or lack thereof is the number one marker of health.
John 00:15:13
Or like, not like, it is the thing that will kill you the fastest is not being able to be connected and feel that, like, relational health.
John 00:15:24
I think the second important point in community, as you said, is that it's not just like, want action at the.
John 00:15:35
Like a desire like, I want Pepsi or I want whatever.
John 00:15:39
This is a deep biological imperative.
John 00:15:43
That was the.
John 00:15:44
It was like the base structure that humans evolved in for 98.5% of our species evolution.
John 00:15:53
It's like we are literally biologically hardwired to thrive in communities.
John 00:15:59
There's also, I think, a longing people can't quite name.
John 00:16:02
And that also goes beyond just having friends, because a community.
John 00:16:07
And again, I really want to define, because you said that, that, like, the word community of most other words can be really misunderstood.
John 00:16:17
People throw that word around all the time.
John 00:16:18
Community is not your friendship group.
John 00:16:20
It's not just like the guys you hang out with and drink beer, play, like, sports with or whatever.
John 00:16:25
It actually is a place of solidarity and mutual care.
John 00:16:30
And actually, in real community, you don't like everybody.
John 00:16:34
You don't agree with everybody.
John 00:16:36
But because you have a common shared interest and care and really understand that your life depends on everybody else's life, you show up in solidarity to support.
John 00:16:47
I mean, this is what, you know, extended family is in its best regard at some level.
John 00:16:52
So I think one, we're in a really interesting point on planet Earth, where we are in this globalized world.
John 00:16:59
So it's not just we have to.
John 00:17:01
We can't just be local and tribal.
John 00:17:03
And for.
John 00:17:03
And why, Tamara, the community we made a film about is so unique.
John 00:17:07
Is that one of the core differences from them and the other communes, like your parents ones in the 70, that most of them failed, like, one of the highest failure rates of any endeavor is that.
John 00:17:17
Well, there's really two things.
John 00:17:19
But one is that they weren't like, we're gonna go.
Jesse Hirsch 00:17:21
And just quickly, not only did they fail, but they left their participants with trauma that skewed their politics, which is no surprise.
Jesse Hirsch 00:17:30
That's why a lot of boomers are supporting Trump, because they may have been Lefties when they were young.
Jesse Hirsch 00:17:35
But to your point, they had such a bad experience that that influenced their politics.
Jesse Hirsch 00:17:40
Please continue.
John 00:17:41
And that.
John 00:17:42
Which is interesting, because that doesn't mean it was the wrong approach, but it wasn't culturally mature enough yet.
John 00:17:49
But one of the things that makes Tamara mature and functional is that they aren't like, we're gonna go make a little, like, enclave and hide.
John 00:17:57
Because they recognize very intelligently, we are on one Earth and you can't hide.
John 00:18:02
We are on, you know, some kind of, like, sinking ship and that.
John 00:18:07
So they recognize that their vision, which is part of what keeps people also together in that solidarity, is having a common vision.
John 00:18:15
Their vision was like, hey, we need to make this functional, but as a model for what global peace culture could be like.
John 00:18:22
And we need to understand how what we're doing at this very local interpersonal level is also deep activism towards a global system change.
John 00:18:33
And they spent 50 years in the deep thinking and research and a really.
John 00:18:38
A really profound theory of really how change can happen through field effects, which is a whole thing we could go in, go like, into.
John 00:18:46
But the other thing they figured out, and I want to say also in this moment of fascism rising here in the US and really around the world, why we should be learning from the people that survived and how to deal with the aftermath of fascism.
John 00:19:03
Prior and Tamara is a German project that came out of World War II.
John 00:19:09
Germany.
John 00:19:09
It was the next generation of kids being like, what the happened?
John 00:19:13
Like that incredible guilt and responsibility put something in the founders and the early, early people in Tamara that was like, this can never happen again.
John 00:19:24
We have to actually find a different way.
John 00:19:26
And what they found was that fascism happens primarily through othering and through, like, repressed psychological, emotional content.
John 00:19:35
So their community, and any community is going to have to deal with this pretty much has to be organic, like, vestibule of healing, shadow of digesting trauma and pain.
John 00:19:48
And shadow.
John 00:19:48
And Tamara went straight in there and put shadow in the center in a very held way and continually healed and is still doing that work.
Jesse Hirsch 00:19:58
Yeah, I.
Jesse Hirsch 00:19:59
I want to pick.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:00
I want to get you to double down on something you just said.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:02
And while also not just citing the German experience, but the Spanish and Portuguese experience, because both the Spanish and Portuguese, of course, had extended fascist regimes that survived the Second World War.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:15
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:16
So it went even longer.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:17
And I think that has incubated a much different community centric culture that we don't have here in North America.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:26
And that's why I want you to spend a bit of time unpacking the Othering.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:30
Because so much of contemporary American culture is based on othering.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:35
And the kind of connection I made when you said that is the extent to which.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:40
And again, I'm using North America as the context.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:43
This may be happening elsewhere, but it strikes me so much of community in North America is centered around othering, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:52
We are who we are because we're not them, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:54
We are the Democrats because we're not the deplorables.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:57
We are the maga because we're not the elite, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:59
And so much of that community construction of identity and the narratives and stories that go with it reinforce this culture of othering.
Jesse Hirsch 00:21:09
So I'd love for your thoughts on that, but in particular thoughts on how we reverse that, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:21:14
Thoughts on how we bring it back to inclusive notions of community.
Jesse Hirsch 00:21:18
Especially when that fucker in the White House like he did an executive order against diversity, you know, inclusion and equity, like they are so vehemently committed to othering, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:21:32
That it has infected our notion of community.
Jesse Hirsch 00:21:34
How do we counter that?
John 00:21:36
That's why I think also we should not fear because there, there's no real power in othering.
John 00:21:43
Yes, Hitler did heinous things, but at the end of the day there is a spiritual strike.
John 00:21:49
There's actually a really great book I recommend called the Fifth Sacred Thing by Starhawk who's actually speaking.
John 00:21:54
It's an incredible novel that really shows the political possibility of like a spiritual stance of inclusion.
John 00:22:02
It's an incredible book.
John 00:22:03
Just that's like a kind of a side thing.
John 00:22:07
But most people again think of community as like minded people.
John 00:22:12
And that couldn't be further.
John 00:22:13
This is not your interest group.
John 00:22:16
That's great to have, but that is not community was always a diversity.
John 00:22:21
That has to really be a holistic frackle, a holistic fractal of really the entire earth.
John 00:22:27
And not saying you need to have one person from every place, but it actually like diversity in any ecological system is what builds resilience.
John 00:22:36
And community is there to build social resilience.
John 00:22:41
Which again is why the nuclear family doesn't work.
John 00:22:44
It's just not resilient.
John 00:22:45
It is just inherently not a resilient thing.
John 00:22:47
And community is.
John 00:22:49
Which is a whole other thing we could go into.
John 00:22:51
But on the topic of othering and what we do about it.
John 00:22:54
So one I want to say that it is both a political pathway and a spiritual pathway.
John 00:23:01
So it's like yes, I do it because I care about the world and I do it because this makes me more fulfilled.
John 00:23:07
Because every time we are like othering, we're Actually othering a part of ourselves because what we other is repressed psychological is repressed parts of us.
John 00:23:16
So we therefore are not as whole and we are more innerly divided and full of essentially angst.
John 00:23:22
That's the opposite really of peace or like happiness or a contentment.
John 00:23:26
And you know, I want her to talk with this man, Daniel Schmachtenberger, who's like one of the most incredible existential thinkers.
John 00:23:33
Like this dude is tracking existential threat on the biggest level on planet Earth.
John 00:23:37
And when asked what is the most important thing we can do to like deal with existential threat at the largest level?
John 00:23:45
And what he said was go and have an open minded conversation with people that think differently than you and truly be curious.
John 00:23:55
Listen, do not come in again.
John 00:23:58
We need to also evolve to a place where our identity structure is not our beliefs.
John 00:24:04
That's also was also what makes Trump and Maga and those things weak and not real power is that there isn't real power in identity because it's not very actually a very like strong thing.
John 00:24:14
And so can you hold your beliefs in front of you loosely and actually talk to somebody who you might even hate and really consider there's a good reason they believe what they believe and if you had their life experience, you'd likely believe the exact same thing.
John 00:24:32
And where can you actually seek to grow understanding?
John 00:24:36
You don't have to necessarily agree with them, but to really hear people is the start of the revolution.
Jesse Hirsch 00:24:41
And there's an interesting kind of tangent to that on the research side, which is that persuasion doesn't work.
Jesse Hirsch 00:24:49
Like if you go into a situation wanting to persuade something of someone, best case scenario they're going to ignore you.
Jesse Hirsch 00:24:57
Worst case scenario, they're going to double down on the opposite just to piss you off.
Jesse Hirsch 00:25:02
And we mistake advertising for persuasion when advertising is just reaching out to the converted already and activating them.
Jesse Hirsch 00:25:10
Your point about community?
Jesse Hirsch 00:25:12
I've often had the definition that community are the people who will wipe my ass when I'm not able to.
Jesse Hirsch 00:25:19
I use that to be vulgar.
Jesse Hirsch 00:25:21
I use that to kind of give a sense that there's a commitment to community that I think in our consumer society, in our convenience society society, not a lot of people get to.
Jesse Hirsch 00:25:32
But I want you to talk about Tamara and I want you to talk about kind of the film that you did around it.
Jesse Hirsch 00:25:39
Partly because what we've been describing so far, while you and I fundamentally believe in it, it can still be a little abstract or even radical for some people.
Jesse Hirsch 00:25:50
But stories are real.
Jesse Hirsch 00:25:51
And I think in Tamara this is an example of community that, to your point, is not only mature, but is inspiring.
Jesse Hirsch 00:25:59
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:00
At a level.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:01
Yeah.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:02
That I think we need right now at a moment where people, quite frankly, are anxious.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:08
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:08
And concerned about what comes next.
John 00:26:11
Thank you.
John 00:26:12
Yeah.
John 00:26:13
I mean, this film came through, really our souls in terms of.
John 00:26:18
I went to Tamara 11 years ago and I was like.
John 00:26:22
And I at the time, been a social change filmmaker seeking solutions to the crisis we.
John 00:26:28
We were in, are in.
John 00:26:30
And at Tamara, it was like, oh, it's not people just, like, doing some activism, maybe doing some cool permaculture.
John 00:26:38
It is like these people built a completely different society from the ground up.
John 00:26:45
And in that, what they figured out.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:48
Can you give a sense of timeline?
John 00:26:51
Yeah.
John 00:26:51
So Tamara started really in the 60s, like, student movement.
John 00:26:56
One of their founders, Dieter Doom, wrote a book called Fear and Capitalism and really was talking about the way capitalism is built from fear and, like, othering.
John 00:27:05
And then in 1978, met his two other co founders and they started like, a community research.
John 00:27:12
Community research experiment that, like 20 people live together in a farmhouse for three years.
John 00:27:18
And it just slowly grew.
John 00:27:19
And at some point they're in Germany.
John 00:27:21
They actually got kicked out of Germany because one of the things that does make them very radical but also very successful, which is probably the most controversial, is that in their community, they don't operate from, like, morals.
John 00:27:35
They actually believe that getting past morality is part of the evolution of our species, because that's founded in static ideology.
John 00:27:43
But they have ethical principles.
John 00:27:45
The first and foremost are truth and transparency, all to build trust.
John 00:27:50
And when they found.
John 00:27:51
When they started actually doing this deep shadow work, the place of most conflict, you know, along really with power and money, is love and sexuality.
John 00:28:02
Because we've been programmed.
John 00:28:05
I'm saying that intentionally because of the loss of village over thousands of years, the idea of nuclear family and the story of the one has become like the Hollywood.
John 00:28:18
Hollywood injected trauma response at a cultural level to the loss of village.
Jesse Hirsch 00:28:25
Although I would go further, I mean, you're correct in evoking Hollywood as a powerful storyteller.
Jesse Hirsch 00:28:31
But let's not forget the church.
Jesse Hirsch 00:28:32
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:28:33
It's more than Hollywood.
Jesse Hirsch 00:28:35
It's Western culture as a whole.
John 00:28:37
Yes.
Jesse Hirsch 00:28:38
I think has embraced that narrative and promoted it.
John 00:28:41
And it makes so much sense.
John 00:28:42
The same way that in your own inner healing journey as a child, you grasped on to, like, survival.
John 00:28:49
Survival strategies that maybe don't actually serve you long term, but worked then.
John 00:28:54
It's like, yeah, it made sense in the loss of village to grab on to nuclear family, to Grab onto this idea of the one, the one and only, who's going to save you.
John 00:29:03
But that's just not a resilient system.
John 00:29:05
So the reason love and sexuality became so central is that the thing that prevents community.
John 00:29:10
I see this again and again and again, is people get in fear that they're going to lose their, like, mythic narrative of the one.
John 00:29:19
Or, you know, think of Trumpism.
John 00:29:20
It's all about family first.
John 00:29:22
But again, family as some isolated, separate unit from really, the community.
John 00:29:28
There's a deep coupling between, like, nuclear family first and nationalism, because there's no community in the center, which is where resilience and health actually works.
John 00:29:40
So, Tamara, over time, and they're often called a polyamorous village, but that isn't true.
John 00:29:46
They don't operate in these identities of, I'm polyamorous, I'm monogamous.
John 00:29:50
They operate in truth.
John 00:29:52
And when you're in a safe enough container with 150 people, it's often very true that you are attracted to or love more than one person.
John 00:30:01
It doesn't also mean that always has to equate to sexual love.
John 00:30:05
But even that, even in most, like, couples I know in the modern world, like, it's often people can't even have, like, friends of the.
John 00:30:13
Of the other sex, of the partner getting jealous and afraid.
John 00:30:17
So they really realize, okay, this is going to be the biggest block to actually building a community of solidarity.
John 00:30:24
So they had to put that in the center and do a lot of work.
John 00:30:28
So eventually they moved out of Germany, they moved to Portugal, and actually one of the most, like, communist parts of southern Portugal.
John 00:30:36
And they've been there the last 30 years, and they have been thriving.
John 00:30:39
They've been attracting young people, which is often hard for.
John 00:30:42
For projects that started 50, like, years ago.
John 00:30:47
They've been.
John 00:30:48
They've been regenerating their, like, land.
John 00:30:51
They have sister projects.
John 00:30:53
So the other, other thing is, again, with their imperative for global healing.
John 00:30:57
They've done work in crisis areas like Israel, Palestine, like Colombia, like India, like Africa.
John 00:31:05
And they have sister projects because they see these crisis areas as acupuncture points on planet Earth.
John 00:31:12
And they've had to stay because they do have a lot of privilege, but not even necessarily financial privilege, but it's the privilege of community, of a healthy society.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:21
I'll go further.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:22
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:23
Privilege is a word we tend to use in our liberal society to be polite.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:27
What they have is power, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:29
And they have this power partly because they've built a foundation upon which their ideas, their methodologies, because it is often about a more cooperative methodology, a collaborative methodology, than an exploitative one.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:44
But as someone who has spent a lot of time in kind of anarchist milieus over the last several decades, I've certainly recognized that the people who are successful at polyamory are the people who are successful at conflict resolution.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:59
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:59
Because to your point, conflict does tend to come up in things of love, in things of faith, in things of vulnerability.
Jesse Hirsch 00:32:08
And so when I say power, it strikes me that what you're describing is in developing skills of conflict resolution, in developing skills of mediation, that that in itself is a kind of power.
Jesse Hirsch 00:32:21
And we do have a shout out section at the end, but I will circumvent it and say a shout out to my comrade Josh Haner, who for years promoted this concept of the disarmy.
Jesse Hirsch 00:32:33
And the disarmy were a bunch of basically non violent conflict mediators who would willingly put themselves in harm's way between parties at conflict as a way to use their humanity to try to stop that conflict.
Jesse Hirsch 00:32:49
Tamara is obviously not at that level of martyrdom or heroism, but the reason I find this story so compelling is it provides a model of community that is not only successful and resilient, but is different.
Jesse Hirsch 00:33:05
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:33:06
Is radically different from what we see elsewhere.
Jesse Hirsch 00:33:09
And this leads me to ask you the question, as you've been showcasing this film, as you've been sharing this story, what are the kinds of reactions that you've been getting?
Jesse Hirsch 00:33:20
And I don't mean just the envy and people saying, oh, that's fucking awesome, sign me up.
Jesse Hirsch 00:33:27
I mean the more complicated reactions, even the hostile reactions.
Jesse Hirsch 00:33:31
And I say this as a fellow traveler wanting to anticipate where this dialogue is going now that we have a very clear, viable alternative that we can point to.
John 00:33:42
Yeah.
John 00:33:42
You know, I want to say that, you know, definitely most of the reactions are positive and most of the people, it's actually this sensation of like, oh my God, you've put into like, film.
John 00:33:53
And this place is doing something I, like in my heart knew as possible, but I couldn't even conceive of it yet.
John 00:33:59
Just the power of film.
John 00:34:00
We are broadcasting a vision for what's possible.
John 00:34:04
And we're also not saying, everybody go be Tamara.
John 00:34:07
It's going to look different everywhere.
John 00:34:08
But.
John 00:34:08
But their principles are things that they are.
John 00:34:11
They were trying to make a model or a blueprint.
John 00:34:14
And certainly we get people that have been like your parents, people have been hurt by community that see it as a pipe dream or they, they are curious or like.
John 00:34:27
But you're not showing all the shadow and we're like, well, the whole thing we actually were like showing is how they're digesting the shadow.
John 00:34:34
But like, they have, they have essentially a container way they have conflict all the time, but it's in a held container, like centralized as.
John 00:34:44
Like, this is what we do because it is power.
John 00:34:48
And certainly we get people that you can feel have a really deep ideology that this butts up against kind of the hetero cis, normative, like monogamy mandate that that is the only way possible.
John 00:35:05
And the thing is, and for the.
Jesse Hirsch 00:35:08
Record, we did see a fascist government elected partly on that assertion.
Jesse Hirsch 00:35:14
Like, they are so insecure about their identity, to your point, because we as a society are evolving our sexuality, we're evolving our sense of gender, we're evolving our sense of identity.
Jesse Hirsch 00:35:26
And.
Jesse Hirsch 00:35:27
And these reactionaries are so scared of what will be unleashed in their own mind even that they've elected this terror to office just to assert their traditional family values, which have no rooting in tradition whatsoever.
John 00:35:45
Right?
John 00:35:45
But the interesting thing is, and this is the kicker is like, even those people at the film screens or at Tamara, this is now a single line from that book, the fifth Sacred thing I mentioned.
John 00:35:57
But there is a seat for them at the table.
John 00:36:00
Because if that's your honest truth in that moment, Tamara and us will accept you and say, hey, brother, sister, whoever, whatever, like, come sit with us in that truth.
John 00:36:13
We're not here to change you, but we're also here to recognize that truth is ever changing.
John 00:36:19
And we're here just to be in that.
John 00:36:21
You don't have to protect that as your be all like static identity, but we welcome you with it.
John 00:36:30
And we also welcome you as you want to examine it or change or like, not.
John 00:36:34
And that's the thing, Tamara, isn't about an ideology.
John 00:36:37
It's about having a culture of transparency and truth.
John 00:36:41
Recognizing truth is not capital T, because that doesn't really necessarily exist, I think, at least in the form humans can speak about or conceive of or write down.
John 00:36:51
But in like, you can be in the ever flowing emergent expression.
John 00:36:56
And that's where you get to real community.
Jesse Hirsch 00:36:59
And this is where, you know, to play one of my own kind of personal theories.
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:05
I've often felt that the Internet defeats ideology.
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:09
And the reason that the Internet defeats ideology is because ideology is based on constraints and the Internet kind of abolishes constraints.
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:18
Because you're going to hear from everybody, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:20
Anything is possible.
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:22
So instead, I kind of feel that we're entering a moment where politics is defined by methodology, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:29
And that's what Temera has.
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:30
Tamara has a methodology, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:33
A way of approaching the truth, a way of approaching community, a way of approaching conflict.
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:39
And still so much of contemporary society is obsessed with ideology, even the purity of ideology, when instead, and this is the old anarchist in me coming back, it's not about authorities, it's about process, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:56
It's about how you engage the community and how you empower the community in an inclusive, participatory manner.
Jesse Hirsch 00:38:04
But, and here's where I kind of want to push you a little.
Jesse Hirsch 00:38:07
We do find ourselves in one hell of a conflict currently, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:38:12
I often used to joke the class war is waged by the rich, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:38:17
It's not as if the people are saying, oh, we need to rise up.
Jesse Hirsch 00:38:21
No, we are being waged war against constantly.
Jesse Hirsch 00:38:25
And we are now in a conflict with a fascist regime who, as a Canadian, they're already essentially declaring war on us and saying they're going to invade, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:38:34
And crash our economy.
Jesse Hirsch 00:38:35
And our entire political system now is collapsing, ending chaos.
Jesse Hirsch 00:38:40
That's a literal hostile act to a so called NATO ally.
Jesse Hirsch 00:38:45
How do we respond?
Jesse Hirsch 00:38:47
And here I'm putting you on the spot and saying, how do you in America respond to your fellow Americans in this time of conflict?
Jesse Hirsch 00:38:55
Either so that we can create functional community that works now that we've kind of got not a blueprint, but a model that can be riffed on, iterated, improvised upon.
Jesse Hirsch 00:39:07
But how do you see yourself engaging other Americans around these topics when so many of them are intoxicated by the lies of fascism?
John 00:39:16
Yep, totally.
John 00:39:17
And again, I wanted to get to this.
John 00:39:19
I want to tell just a bit of a cultural story around initiation, which has been a big part of also my career work, because in traditional, healthy cultures, like indigenous ancestral cultures, cultures we all came from, at one point there were initiations to become a mature adult in that village.
John 00:39:36
And I think the bigger crisis we're seeing and the conflict at some scale, and I don't want to say this to excuse any of the mayhem happening to people like in Gaza or elsewhere or in this country, in your country.
John 00:39:49
And I think we are in a grand initiation that is trying to mature us.
John 00:39:54
So I think the way to respond, which I am calling culturally mature, a initiated way, is that you have boundaries, you know, you have boundaries against anything that's causing you harm.
John 00:40:08
And beyond having just boundaries, I personally just don't give if somebody's coming at me with a lot of, like, bigotry.
John 00:40:17
I don't, I don't, I don't talk back at them.
John 00:40:19
I mean, if they're, if they're up in my place, I need to set a boundary.
John 00:40:22
I'll set a boundary, which usually is me leaving or setting a boundary if it's, like, in my personal space.
John 00:40:28
But often it's not to engage because that's the hook.
John 00:40:31
We can't get hooked in the online fighting.
John 00:40:34
It's actually just don't resonate that Tamara has understood deeply about the principle of resonance, like the actual vibrational frequency.
John 00:40:43
So I just don't vibrate with it.
John 00:40:46
And that could sound a little bit esoteric, but I actually mean that in, like a second scientific kind of, like, way.
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:51
And even, even culturally, you know, the kids are all using the word vibes.
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:56
Right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:56
Like, the vibe's not right.
John 00:40:58
Yeah.
John 00:40:59
So again, if somebody comes at me with, like, bad vibes, like, kind of bigoted or othering vibes, I will hold my.
John 00:41:06
I will double down in my frequency, which is I'm bounded, I'm secure, and I have a, like, open heart and I see them with compassion and love, and I'm willing to engage them, but not at that frequency.
John 00:41:19
I will not engage somebody.
John 00:41:20
So I think we.
John 00:41:21
I think that Canada to the U.S.
John 00:41:24
i think we should.
John 00:41:24
Like, the thing about Trump, everybody plays his game because they.
John 00:41:28
Because they are afraid.
John 00:41:29
But if you're not afraid, you just don't have to, you know, like, Michelle Obama was very, very intelligent.
John 00:41:37
She was like the vibes of the whole thing.
John 00:41:40
She just didn't show up to the inauguration.
John 00:41:42
Like, that is just, for me, that's the answer.
John 00:41:46
Just don't, don't, don't.
John 00:41:48
Just play, play the game.
John 00:41:49
And yes, if somebody's coming at you, you need to set a boundary.
John 00:41:53
And, like, I'm not even against human beings setting a boundary by force.
John 00:41:59
Like, I would protect myself and my community from violence if I, like, needed to.
John 00:42:05
That's definitely my last resort.
John 00:42:07
So I'm not in this leftist.
John 00:42:09
Like, we just have an open heart.
John 00:42:11
We're going to, like, vibrate them to a new level.
John 00:42:13
No, sometimes you have to have a boundary, but you can always stay anchored in that open heart and set a boundary with yourself.
John 00:42:22
Not.
John 00:42:22
And I would even say this is the real ticket.
John 00:42:24
This is the thing I've been thinking about a lot.
John 00:42:26
Like, I really think part of the answer is to love Trump.
John 00:42:29
It's not to not hold him accountable.
John 00:42:32
It's not to not be like, dude, that's fucking messed up, and I'm saying no, but it's to be like, ultimately, man, I see that Deep down you're hurting and you're scared and you're really like insecure and like, oh, you know, because that is disarming.
John 00:42:46
That's part of that disarming you're talking about.
John 00:42:48
Because if I come back at him trying to play his game, I'm gonna lose because that game is a win lose game.
John 00:42:55
So I always lose because there are losers.
John 00:42:57
If you play the win win game, which is like, man, I see you're hurting.
John 00:43:02
Like, oh, dude, you don't have to do that.
John 00:43:04
You don't have to like do all that big talk because you're, you know, if you just kind of like, if you rise to a different level and don't vibrate, it can actually change people without the fight.
Jesse Hirsch 00:43:14
Well, and, and to your point, the, the win win requires empathy.
Jesse Hirsch 00:43:18
And unfortunately, empathy is not something a lot of people are practicing as regularly as they should.
Jesse Hirsch 00:43:24
So let, let me ask one last question before, please, I, I get you to talk about fugitive futures and how people can check out the film.
Jesse Hirsch 00:43:32
I think to go back to a phrase I used earlier, the kind of pandemic of loneliness.
Jesse Hirsch 00:43:37
I think there are a lot of people who desire community, but they don't know where to start.
Jesse Hirsch 00:43:42
And not only do they don't know where to start, but maybe they should be the one to start.
Jesse Hirsch 00:43:47
Maybe there are other people who would benefit from them initiating that community.
Jesse Hirsch 00:43:52
And paradoxically, even though I think we would both agree that the best communities are face to face, you still can have somewhat meaningful community using the digital technology we have, 100%.
Jesse Hirsch 00:44:04
So I'm curious again, not to get too deep into it.
Jesse Hirsch 00:44:08
This is more kind of a high level surface stuff.
Jesse Hirsch 00:44:12
But what advice would you have for people who, you know, you've a couple times been really provocative and I think quite correct in saying community is not an interest group.
Jesse Hirsch 00:44:22
It's not about people who you agree with.
Jesse Hirsch 00:44:25
What are your tips on helping people create and sustain meaningful community?
John 00:44:30
Yeah, totally.
John 00:44:31
There's a few different things.
John 00:44:32
I mean, what I want to say, there isn't necessarily a recipe or a formula, but there are best practices.
John 00:44:38
I want to say also community isn't out there.
John 00:44:43
It's not even necessarily to build.
John 00:44:47
It's like inner place to recognize you already are in community.
John 00:44:53
You already live around people.
John 00:44:55
And not just with people, with the plants, the animals, the trees are literally Exchanging Oxygen and CO2 with you, the sun.
John 00:45:02
And once you recognize I am in community and you start acting as if that is so.
John 00:45:08
For me, that's the first step which would Mean, say hi to your, like, neighbors, maybe invite them over for dinner, even if they're different or, like, weird.
John 00:45:16
Because it's not just going to be about the cool people you find either at some cool event or on the Internet.
John 00:45:22
And I'd say also be willing.
John 00:45:25
Community also comes in.
John 00:45:27
You create, like, a suction into it through your vulnerability.
John 00:45:31
And it's vulnerable to name.
John 00:45:33
Man, I'm lonely.
John 00:45:35
Like, in a healthy culture, in community, suffering is an opportunity for companionship.
John 00:45:42
So if you can also be vulnerable by saying, hey, I'm hurting, or I.
John 00:45:47
I really, like, want.
John 00:45:48
It's also vulnerable to say, I want this.
John 00:45:50
Like, I want community even, Right.
John 00:45:52
If you just wrote on Facebook, you know what people.
John 00:45:54
I'm recognizing, I want a different kind of life.
John 00:45:57
And I just want to put it out there that, like, I'm seeking more connection, more.
John 00:46:01
See what happens.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:03
Let me push back there a little, only to get you to double down.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:08
Because I have often used the phrase vulnerability is power.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:12
And there's often nothing more powerful than being vulnerable.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:16
And I have had so much shit thrown at me in response to that.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:20
People are like, no, you're wrong, or, no, that's terrible.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:24
And I still believe it.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:26
It's still something I say.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:27
But I have gotten a lot of blowback by trying to argue exactly what you just argued.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:32
Because I think that vulnerability is not only the heart of community, it's the heart of trust.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:37
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:38
And how we.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:39
Yeah.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:40
So please elaborate.
John 00:46:42
Yeah, Well, I say, like, if you're actually being vulnerable, you need to expect you're gonna get blowback.
John 00:46:48
That's what makes it vulnerable.
John 00:46:49
Right.
John 00:46:49
In various ways.
John 00:46:50
Because you being vulnerable is going to press on other people's vulnerabilities.
John 00:46:56
So you do at some level.
John 00:46:58
Also.
John 00:46:58
The thing is, you have to be like one.
John 00:47:00
You have to be intelligently vulnerable.
John 00:47:02
You need to actually check in what are my resources to be vulnerable in the way I'm wanting to be vulnerable.
John 00:47:08
And I want to say you can't be vulnerable as a.
John 00:47:12
As a manipulation.
John 00:47:14
There is a lot of people, especially in the kind of, like, alternative coaching world, that use vulnerability purely to sell.
John 00:47:21
And so I want to say there is ways that that actually isn't even real being vulnerable, but I want to say that you will find the power in that being resonated with.
John 00:47:36
And people are going to resonate with you.
John 00:47:38
And you need to also, as you come out into your own power, your own power is predicated on other people not liking you, disagreeing with you, and you don't waver.
John 00:47:50
You don't start fawning to appease people.
John 00:47:53
You just say like, hey.
John 00:47:54
So I want to say it's like also, it isn't like go jump into the deep end of being vulnerable.
John 00:48:00
It's like, what's the, what's the, what's the easiest, lowest hanging fruit of a vulnerable next step where you could be more honest.
John 00:48:07
Because that's what all it's about.
John 00:48:08
It's about vulnerability is you being more honest.
John 00:48:11
So where could you be more honest with your parents, with your partner, with your friends, about what you really want and what you're really afraid of or the grief you have?
John 00:48:20
Like, that's the step.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:21
And I think that starts by being honest with yourself.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:24
And in late stage capitalism, a lot of people are lying to themselves because you're often rewarded for doing so.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:31
So being honest about yourself, that you desire community, that you'll thrive in community, and that community takes work, that it's not like everything else in the convenient society, designed for you.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:42
Quite the opposite.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:43
You are designed for community.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:45
And that means that there's much work that needs to be done.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:48
Which brings us to the last segment we have on every Meta views, which is the shout outs because I think it's really important to recognize that we all stand on the shoulders of giants.
Jesse Hirsch 00:49:04
And I want to shout out my friend Tamika, who I'm going to message the moment that this interview is done to let her know about Fugitive Futures, because I think she is going to get a kick out of what you're doing.
Jesse Hirsch 00:49:17
So before we do the shout outs, actually give us a quick promo again on Fugitive Futures and then another promo about the film and how people can connect.
John 00:49:30
So actually I'll start with the film, just because I think it's.
John 00:49:33
The film is the village of lovers and we committed 10 years ago to give this film away as a gift.
John 00:49:39
So it's available on our website on Gift Economy, which is our experiment with a different economical way.
John 00:49:46
We have a suggested donation, but you can pay zero.
John 00:49:50
And the film is going to like be one of the most inspiring things you have ever seen.
John 00:49:54
I fucking guarantee it.
John 00:49:56
I'm not saying you're still going to agree with it all or like it, but it is definitely something to expand your mind in a way different than it ever has been.
John 00:50:06
And so I want to say watch it with a friend, watch it with community, share it with your people.
John 00:50:11
Because it's meant to be a thing that inspires connection.
John 00:50:14
And we did it to ask better questions, not even necessarily give answers.
John 00:50:19
So that's Our prayer and fugitive futures is like, okay, we actually need a place where we can come together.
John 00:50:26
We're gathering some of the best thought leaders, whatever, I don't really like that term, but some of the best leaders who are doing all different wild facets of regenerative culture.
John 00:50:35
And we're gathering over a five day arc.
John 00:50:38
And you don't necessarily need to be there all five days, but there is an arc of experience where we're going through reckoning, through, through grief, through repair, through vision, through emergence.
John 00:50:49
We're really building a very open blueprint to what approaching the future in a more fugitive way would look like.
John 00:50:58
I also must say we're also doing it under ethical economics.
John 00:51:01
So we have ticket prices, but we also.
John 00:51:03
It's completely accessible to anybody if you just like, write us.
John 00:51:07
And if you need a different pricing structure, write us.
John 00:51:11
If people are like, you know what?
John 00:51:12
I can't pay anything.
John 00:51:14
We will still give it to you because we are trusting.
Jesse Hirsch 00:51:17
I will say that those prices are also quite reasonable.
Jesse Hirsch 00:51:20
Like in the world of events and conferences, it's accessible to begin with just from the pricing.
Jesse Hirsch 00:51:28
But it's great that you're providing that kind of pay what you can back door.
John 00:51:32
And I want to say we did something similar a year ago, but not even as good as we really learned from last year.
John 00:51:38
Last year we had 6,000 people come.
John 00:51:40
Not all at once.
John 00:51:42
People signed up and they were blown away.
John 00:51:45
Like, it really is something to be like, you know what we need to do?
John 00:51:48
We need to get fucking together and sit in the uncertainty.
John 00:51:53
And that's future.
John 00:51:53
The futures is like, let's sit together in the not knowing and see what happens.
John 00:51:58
And that's a lot more edgy and exciting than like come hear a bunch of answers.
John 00:52:01
It's like, no.
John 00:52:02
Bring your own questions, your own grief, your own longing.
John 00:52:06
We're going to like meet you there, have some deep inspirations, but we have speakers, we have like butterfly TED style talks, we have integration spaces every single day.
John 00:52:14
We have practical workshops.
John 00:52:16
Because that's also not just talk, but learn some practical skills.
John 00:52:20
It's really actually what we're saying is like this is part of the consciousness shift.
John 00:52:25
Come be part of it.
John 00:52:26
Your consciousness will be transformed.
John 00:52:28
Even if you come one day, like you will be transformed.
John 00:52:32
That is what we are creating and that comes from like the willingness to be in that uncertainty.
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:38
Right on.
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:39
So shout outs, anyone, living or dead, that you think our audience should know more about.
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:46
And you know one or two names, you don't need to get into your.
John 00:52:50
Entire yeah, I'm gonna say life story, four names.
John 00:52:52
I want to shout out to my dad, Blair Trotwine, who I'm living in his house right now.
John 00:52:57
I've been helping him and his in his retirement journey and his healing journey.
John 00:53:02
He's been helping me as I've been putting out this film the last year.
John 00:53:05
Shout out to my deceased mother, Suzanne Elizabeth Wilson Trotwind.
John 00:53:09
She's my guardian angel.
John 00:53:10
Me and her did not have an easy thing in life and in death has been a lot of healing.
John 00:53:16
So I want to say, just like ancestors matter.
John 00:53:19
And I also want to shout out to my two film partners, Ian McKenzie and Julia Marianska.
John 00:53:24
I've been on a 10 year journey with them as a team of three, and that has been the most revolutionary, like sticking together for 10 years, like bowing down to those two and us three for many ruptures, many repairs, many having to practice what we're preaching about conflict and community.
Jesse Hirsch 00:53:43
Right on.
Jesse Hirsch 00:53:44
Right on.
Jesse Hirsch 00:53:45
Well, thank you, John.
Jesse Hirsch 00:53:46
This has been a fantastic conversation.
Jesse Hirsch 00:53:50
I suspect a lot of our audience members, especially those who were part of intentional communities in the 70s, were probably leaning in and really being inspired by the way that our generations, newer generations, are picking up the cause, as it were.
Jesse Hirsch 00:54:09
And maybe we'll have you back in a few months to talk about fugitive futures and talk about how this stuff is moving on.
Jesse Hirsch 00:54:16
Because the main thing I've been wanting to hear, and I will want to hear, to hear, is how people are responding to all of this, because I think this is a ray of hope.
Jesse Hirsch 00:54:24
So that's been today's episode of Meta Views.
Jesse Hirsch 00:54:27
You can find us on the usual socials, but we'll be back soon with hopefully it probably won't be as good as an episode as this one.
Jesse Hirsch 00:54:35
We can't do this all the time, but nonetheless, we will be back with more good stuff.
Jesse Hirsch 00:54:41
Although Rick Salutin, I think, is our next episode, so it'll be almost as good as John.
Jesse Hirsch 00:54:47
But again, we'll see you all soon.
";}