Exploring the intricacies of outrage culture and its impact on public discourse, Jesse Hirsh and David Beckemeyer engage in a thought-provoking conversation that sheds light on the current state of information consumption and political engagement. The discussion opens with the implications of the Supreme Court's TikTok ban, which Beckemeyer uses as a springboard to delve into the psychological factors driving political behavior, particularly the concept of humiliation in American politics. Through their analysis, they reveal how feelings of humiliation can lead to extreme political actions and responses, citing notable examples from contemporary figures. They emphasize that these emotional drivers create a fertile ground for misinformation and polarization, creating a cycle that is difficult to escape.
As the podcast progresses, Hirsh and Beckemeyer tackle the pressing issue of media literacy, stating that while it is vital for individuals to understand the information landscape, this knowledge must be complemented by an awareness of the social dynamics at play. They argue that fostering empathy and dignity in conversations—especially with ideological opponents—is crucial for bridging divides in an increasingly fragmented society. Beckemeyer highlights that engaging with differing viewpoints does not equate to agreement; rather, it enriches one's understanding and strengthens advocacy for one's beliefs. The importance of personal responsibility in maintaining mental health amid the chaos of outrage culture is also underscored, suggesting that a bottom-up approach can help cultivate a more resilient public discourse.
The conversation culminates in a call to action, urging listeners to foster community, practice empathy, and engage constructively with those who hold differing views. By sharing personal anecdotes about interactions in various social contexts, Hirsh and Beckemeyer illustrate how meaningful connections can transcend political differences. The episode serves as a reminder that despite the challenges posed by outrage culture and misinformation, there is potential for dialogue and understanding, emphasizing that humanity should prevail in our interactions, regardless of ideological divides.
Takeaways:
Links referenced in this episode:
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Hello, I'm Jesse Hirsch and welcome to Meta Views, recorded live in front of an automated audience.
Jesse Hirsch 00:00:12
And today we're gonna talk about something that I think quite frankly is needed, which is making sense of all the nonsense, or more accurately addressing the culture of outrage, the culture of toxicity, the lack of discourse, even the corruption of discourse or something.
Jesse Hirsch 00:00:35
We've talked a lot here on Meta Views is pollution in the information ecosystem.
Jesse Hirsch 00:00:41
And I'm joined today by David Beckmeyer, who.
Jesse Hirsch 00:00:45
David, we like to start each of our show with kind of set of icebreakers.
Jesse Hirsch 00:00:52
And in traditional media fashion, we always like to start with the news, partly because Metaview publishes a daily newsletter on substack.
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:02
But the breaking news that I just saw before we started recording was the Supreme Court has upheld the TikTok ban.
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:10
And even though it's still uncertain as to what that means, cuz of course the incoming administration says they wanna make a deal, they wanna come across as saviors.
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:20
But now TikTok saying they're gonna go dark as a protest move, that they're just gonna shut everything off, all services in the United States.
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:29
Cause they recognize that their users are pissed off and it could be a moment if there is some kind of negotiating for them to sort of have the advantage there.
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:40
Now, David, this is always where I turn to the guest and I say, is there any news you would like to share?
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:46
Could be personal news, could be world news.
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:49
Unfortunately, I have had some guests share some fake news, which I'm sure you understand the dynamics of the Internet and how that happens.
Jesse Hirsch 00:01:59
But I'm curious, within the spontaneity of this newscast, if there's anything you think our audience should know about in terms of the general landscape of either your personal life or what's happening right now in politics and media.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:13
Yeah, okay, sure.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:15
I don't know if I'd call it a news exactly news, but there was some commentary.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:19
I don't know if you saw it from.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:23
Paul Bloom talked about this theory of America, this humiliation theory of American politics.
Jesse Hirsch 00:02:29
No, I didn't.
Jesse Hirsch 00:02:29
That sounds hilarious.
Jesse Hirsch 00:02:31
Please.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:32
Yeah, so, I mean, he was.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:33
He's kind of coming from this perspective that, you know, it's obviously not the only driver for, for some of these.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:40
These things, but one driver.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:41
It was like, you know, there's sort of the famous thing about Donald Trump was humiliated at the roast by Obama at the.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:47
Whatever it was, the.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:48
What do they call that?
David Beckmeyer 00:02:49
The.
Jesse Hirsch 00:02:49
The press dinner.
Jesse Hirsch 00:02:50
The Washington press dinner.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:51
Yeah, yeah, the press corps dinner thing.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:53
And he was in.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:54
And a lot of people cite that as that's why he was determined to go become president.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:58
Eddie.
David Beckmeyer 00:02:59
Eddie also talks about how I think Tucker Carlson was sort of, quote unquote, humiliated.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:05
I often, like, really, was he, though?
David Beckmeyer 00:03:06
Because I know people on the right would see him as humiliated, but he's humiliated by Jon Stewart a while back on, like, a crossfire kind of thing.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:16
And.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:16
And I think even if the right wouldn't see it as humiliation, they see it as the left humiliate, humiliating them.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:21
And they're found to be humiliated.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:23
Humiliated within the.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:24
I'm having a hard time with that word today.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:26
And within the.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:27
Within the sphere of kind of the left media and all that sort of stuff.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:30
And now he's sort of saying Musk is kind of in that same thing.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:33
He feels slighted by Biden that he wasn't invited to the electric vehicle event, which is probably dumb, because here's a guy that's like, got the largest, you know, electric vehicle market out there, and they've been in it the longest in some sense, and doesn't invite him.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:46
I mean, that was dumb, probably, but.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:48
And he's slighted by that, so he's citing that as a reason why this kind of public embarrassment.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:54
And he sort of saying, stop doing that.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:56
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:57
But.
David Beckmeyer 00:03:57
But for me, I kind of take it to a next step, though, and it kind of ties back to my show a little bit that, you know, I hear this from my audience a lot.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:03
You're just telling me to be nice to the other side and stop having my own perspective on things or whatever, or, you know, and I'm really not doing that.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:10
I'm.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:10
I'm sort of saying just be better at conflict.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:13
Right?
David Beckmeyer 00:04:13
Yeah.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:14
Yeah.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:14
It's fine to have different views, and some things you're probably not going to be able to resolve, like.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:18
But, you know, you still have to sort of coexist with these people and find the places where you can have dialogue or whatever.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:24
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:24
So.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:24
So I.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:25
I thought of that as, like, the.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:26
Because the opposite of that would be what?
David Beckmeyer 00:04:28
Not saying anything.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:29
I mean, I still think you need to hold people accountable when they do stuff.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:32
So I.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:32
I get it.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:33
Like, maybe don't do it.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:34
Do it in a way that doesn't publicly humiliate them.
David Beckmeyer 00:04:37
But I think we want to also be mindful that you can't just not do anything either, or you can't just let everything go, I guess, is what I want to say.
Jesse Hirsch 00:04:44
Absolutely.
Jesse Hirsch 00:04:45
And although I love this argument, and it kind of foreshadows the idea that if TikTok were to humiliate the US Government.
Jesse Hirsch 00:04:53
And they're certainly hum humiliating Congress right now in terms of the pushback.
Jesse Hirsch 00:04:57
But if they were to humiliate Trump and the executive, I mean, jokingly, does that lead then to a conflict over Taiwan, or quite the opposite, does it stay just in the language of media?
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:10
And it is funny, I think, how the right, as they ascend to power, have never been more insecure.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:18
You'd think that they'd be sort of in this kind of hubris of, all right, yeah, we made it, we're getting there.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:24
But never have they bit more insecure, I think.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:27
And I think we're seeing that play out in the nomination hearings and just how easily some of the nominees for the cabinet are, quite frankly, being made fools of.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:38
And that doesn't mean that they won't end up in their positions, I think, due to the nature of contemporary politics.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:45
But it fuels the outrage machine, which I think we're going to end up talking about quite a bit.
Jesse Hirsch 00:05:50
Now, our second segment that we do on every episode of metafiews is wtf or what's the Future?
Jesse Hirsch 00:06:01
Because we are a future centric podcast.
Jesse Hirsch 00:06:04
We like to provoke our audience, our guests, to imagine futures, whether desired or undesired, because we operate under the principle that nothing's inevitable.
Jesse Hirsch 00:06:15
Provided you're willing to pay attention.
Jesse Hirsch 00:06:17
Right, Provided you're kind of scoping the horizon to see what's there.
Jesse Hirsch 00:06:21
So I'm curious, David, what is something that either you're looking at or that you think our audience needs to be looking at when anticipating the next year, the next few months, in what's looking to be a pretty turbulent and volatile period?
David Beckmeyer 00:06:39
Oh, well, I was kind of framing it into longer world when I was thinking about, please go right ahead.
David Beckmeyer 00:06:43
But you know, in terms of like, yeah, the next few months or the next year or so, I mean, I'd be looking at resiliency, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:06:50
I mean, I think there's going to be a lot of stuff being thrown at the wall.
David Beckmeyer 00:06:53
Overreacting is going to happen a lot.
David Beckmeyer 00:06:55
People are going to, you know, think everything is a doomsday, you know, kind of, and we're going to have to sort through which ones are as big a deal as that, that probably deserve our attention.
David Beckmeyer 00:07:04
I think that's.
David Beckmeyer 00:07:05
That's going to be a challenge.
David Beckmeyer 00:07:07
And so, you know, what are the, you know, how do you do that?
David Beckmeyer 00:07:10
It's like, easier said than done.
David Beckmeyer 00:07:12
But a lot of it is just trying to be mindful and trying to ask those questions, like, you know, am I?
David Beckmeyer 00:07:17
Is this as big a deal as they're really portraying it as, because that kind of gets to what you're saying about the outreach industry world that wants to hype, you know, wants to get us so afraid all the time.
David Beckmeyer 00:07:26
So.
David Beckmeyer 00:07:26
But it's going to be tough.
David Beckmeyer 00:07:27
I mean, I think we're going to see a lot, a lot of things thrown at the wall and it's going to be hard to sort through which ones are the places where we should probably spend energy.
Jesse Hirsch 00:07:35
Well, and part of what I've been following in terms of the climate volatility right now, we're seeing it in L.
Jesse Hirsch 00:07:41
A and we saw it with Hurricane Helene and in Carolina and Tennessee is the anxiety a lot of people feel because of the trauma, the disruption to their lives.
Jesse Hirsch 00:07:52
And to your point, how do we divert that from the outrage machine?
Jesse Hirsch 00:07:56
What are the mechanisms that we need to kind of help people go through these types of crises, help them face these types of challenges?
Jesse Hirsch 00:08:05
Fostering community, fostering solidarity, fostering discourse, dialogue around how to measure it.
Jesse Hirsch 00:08:13
And again, I suspect that we're really going to get into the weeds, hopefully, of how that works.
Jesse Hirsch 00:08:19
So to transition then to our feature which I construct these kind of frames and wrap these conversations partly because I want to get the most of your wisdom in the least amount of time, as selfishly as possible.
Jesse Hirsch 00:08:36
But I also try to push my guests to really think about, you know, the next level of their thinking, the implications of the ideas they're presenting.
Jesse Hirsch 00:08:46
And I wanted to start with media literacy because media literacy is something I've certainly benefited from my entire life.
Jesse Hirsch 00:08:54
I, at a very early age, recognized that media literacy was one of the most enabling aspects of living in the world that we are in, that if you were high up on the learning curve of not just media skills, but knowledge, because that fundamentally is what media literacy is about, that you could go far.
Jesse Hirsch 00:09:14
And yet it also seems that we're in a world now where media literacy is kind of a double edged sword, where I always saw it as a path to empowerment.
Jesse Hirsch 00:09:24
I'm kind of now seeing it become weaponized, that it's being used by nefarious actors to be vague, to pollute the information ecosphere, to target people who are vulnerable.
Jesse Hirsch 00:09:38
So I'm curious, in 2025, where do you see the conversation around media literacy?
Jesse Hirsch 00:09:45
Is it still something empty that we just encourage people to do, or are we now coupling with it with larger social responsibilities or larger commitments around respect and civility?
Jesse Hirsch 00:09:59
I'm curious how that synthesizing as our understanding of media literacy is I think fundamentally maturing.
David Beckmeyer 00:10:08
So you actually think media literacy is maturing?
Jesse Hirsch 00:10:13
I know where you're going with that and I'm in accordance.
Jesse Hirsch 00:10:16
When I say maturing, I mean our understanding of it, the distribution of it among society, unfortunately is not as widespread as we require it.
Jesse Hirsch 00:10:26
But I mean on a scholarly level, on an intellectual level, I think our understanding of how it's used and where has changed over the last 10 years.
Jesse Hirsch 00:10:36
Danah Boyd, for example, has written a couple of essays which are kind of critical of media literacy on its own.
Jesse Hirsch 00:10:43
So as someone who is on the front lines, right, who both as a practitioner and as an intellectual, I'm curious how this idea for you has evolved while acknowledging where you were headed there, which is it's still an elite resource and not something that is pervasive amongst the citizenry.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:05
Yeah, well, I think the biggest way, you know, being sort of a STEM person and more, more kind of in that rational science side and you know, was always the person that thought, well if you just have a rational argument, you can win the day.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:16
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:17
What I've learned in a couple of years, doing this show and talking to all the experts and all the research papers and other work that I've read, you know, that's obviously that's like, doesn't work.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:25
And, and, and there's evidence for that, that that doesn't work too.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:28
That's the kind of irony of it.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:29
All right.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:30
The people that say that I'm going to convince you with evidence, there's actually evidence that shows you that convincing you with evidence doesn't work.
Jesse Hirsch 00:11:36
That's a meta view right there.
Jesse Hirsch 00:11:38
Literally.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:38
Right, right, exactly.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:41
You know, and that's actually metaview is kind of interesting too because that's kind of what my show is.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:44
It's kind of a, it's not a.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:45
We don't talk about political issues very much, but we're sort of above that.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:48
Like we're talking about how you talk about political issues, that kind of thing.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:51
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:51
But, but yeah, with media.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:53
Yeah, I guess that's true.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:54
We understand a lot more about it and it has become a lot more weaponized.
David Beckmeyer 00:11:57
So that's one things I've learned is that, you know, it's a lot more our psychology and it's an uphill battle because it's our, it's kind of our, our innate tendencies are to fall into being susceptible to, to misinformation, disinformation and it's not one sided.
David Beckmeyer 00:12:14
Like it's not only Republicans that do this or whatever.
David Beckmeyer 00:12:16
We all suffer from These same cognitive biases and we all suffer from these emotions and getting tied up in our tribal thinking when, when we don't think we are.
David Beckmeyer 00:12:24
I mean, I think that's the other big piece is we're very blind to it when we're doing it or people on our side are doing it.
David Beckmeyer 00:12:29
You know, I mean, I see these conversations about, you know, a bunch of like minded people talking about how the other side is so, you know, caught up in this.
David Beckmeyer 00:12:36
And then, and then they'll go on and say things like, okay, you're doing it right now, you're doing the thing you were just accusing the other people of.
David Beckmeyer 00:12:43
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:12:43
So I think that's probably what I've learned the most about that, you know, in this journey is that it's much more complicated and it's not, it's going to be a challenge because our innate psychology has not really kept up.
David Beckmeyer 00:12:54
Our, our society is not really kept up with, with this.
David Beckmeyer 00:12:58
And it also requires practice and skills that have to be learned.
David Beckmeyer 00:13:03
You don't just, you can't just be smart and then be good at media literacy.
David Beckmeyer 00:13:07
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:13:08
You have to also practice it and look for the signs and things like that.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:12
Well, and you raise an interesting point.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:15
And one of the things we do talk about often here on meta views is learning how we learn.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:21
Right to your point about talking about how we talk.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:24
And one of our key insights is that learning is very social.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:28
It's inherently social.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:29
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:30
That while it is possible to learn alone, learning in a group, learning with others is far more efficient, far faster.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:37
And it matches what you're describing there in terms of both our cognitive biases, but also our tendency towards groupthink that by default we're gonna want to agree with our parents or disagree by default.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:52
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:53
We're going to want to get along with our friends, we're going to want to get along with our co workers.
Jesse Hirsch 00:13:58
So to what extent have or should perhaps media literacy efforts acknowledge those group dynamics rather than sort of expect the individual media consumer to develop that critical lens?
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:12
When it seems like it's two part, it's both fostering that awareness, fostering that critical lens, but also fostering dialogic techniques, for lack of a better phrase, like ways to engage your social world.
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:28
Otherwise, if everyone around you is saying, yeah, the election was stolen, right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:33
That puts a lot of social pressure on you to agree and go, okay, I guess the election was stolen.
Jesse Hirsch 00:14:39
Even if visibly and critically, you know that that's nonsense.
David Beckmeyer 00:14:44
Oh yeah, for sure.
David Beckmeyer 00:14:45
I mean, there's a bunch of threads we could pull there.
David Beckmeyer 00:14:47
But, you know, so one of the first thoughts I had while you were saying that is this idea of trust, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:14:52
I mean, you talked about that we learn things through, through our social networks.
David Beckmeyer 00:14:56
And I think technically it's.
David Beckmeyer 00:14:58
They talk about it as sort of social epistemology, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:15:01
And you know, that there was.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:04
We couldn't be human, we couldn't survive without it.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:06
So it's not saying, you know, we can't do it.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:07
But you have to also realize that there's this trust factor, that you trust the people in your network and you don't trust people on the other side.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:15
And, and, you know, there's a, there's a social psychologist and I'm forgetting the name now, I can get it to you for the show notes.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:20
But she said, she said something so profound when she said that the fear of social death is greater than the fear of physical death.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:29
So, like the thing you're talking about, like, I, I have.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:32
I can't lose my tribe.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:33
And we don't even know this is going on because it's that deep, ancient part of our brain, you know, that survive.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:38
Humans traded brain power for muscle.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:42
They traded muscle for this social cohesion and, and work operating as groups.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:46
And so groupiness is like, literally critical to our survival.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:49
And our brain is very afraid of getting ousted out of a group.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:52
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:53
And we don't even know that's going on.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:54
But, but it's happening all the time.
David Beckmeyer 00:15:56
And so, you know, it's a balance because you have to have.
David Beckmeyer 00:16:00
You can't know everything.
David Beckmeyer 00:16:01
I can't know everything about how an iPhone works, but I'm still going to use an iPhone, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:16:04
So there's a whole bunch of people and there's a whole bunch of history there that just comes collapsed with that.
David Beckmeyer 00:16:09
And I have to kind of accept it.
David Beckmeyer 00:16:10
And there's a bunch of.
David Beckmeyer 00:16:11
And that same thing is true in a bunch of other realms.
David Beckmeyer 00:16:13
We can't know it all ourselves, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:16:16
We're going to have to draw some lines about where we're going to accept the information that we trust from somewhere.
David Beckmeyer 00:16:23
And this is the challenge that we have going forward.
Jesse Hirsch 00:16:27
Well, and it's funny, you sort of describe or you evoke the kind of black box society, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:16:33
The consequence of algorithms is we don't always know why they make the decisions they make.
Jesse Hirsch 00:16:39
Although we are starting to understand now the kind of outrage machine that the bias of fostering engagement is.
Jesse Hirsch 00:16:46
Extremists end up being rewarded because they're more engaging.
Jesse Hirsch 00:16:50
Whether you're telling them that they're wrong or whether you're saying, wow, I didn't know that.
Jesse Hirsch 00:16:54
That type of secret knowledge.
Jesse Hirsch 00:16:56
And we've looked previously at this concept of algorithmic folklore, which is basically people reverse engineering how the algorithm works by talking to each other.
Jesse Hirsch 00:17:07
Do you see that as either facilitating or enabling a kind of media literacy?
Jesse Hirsch 00:17:15
Quite the opposite.
Jesse Hirsch 00:17:17
Is it facilitating further weaponization in the sense that the average person is probably not thinking, okay, now that I know algorithmic optimization, I'm going to make sure my puppy photos are more popular versus it's those who are politically motivated who are perhaps more likely to use that information, use that media literacy to, you know, further destabilize the public discourse.
David Beckmeyer 00:17:46
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:17:47
I mean, some of it's grift, right.
David Beckmeyer 00:17:48
I mean, some people have figured out how to use these tools just.
David Beckmeyer 00:17:51
And sometimes that there's a political aspect of that grift.
David Beckmeyer 00:17:54
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:17:54
They've figured out that that's a hot button I could use and I can then go sell my.
David Beckmeyer 00:17:58
Whatever crazy products they have.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:00
I mean, you know, you could go, I guess, to.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:02
Alex Jones is sort of an example of that in some largest way.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:05
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:05
He has all this nonsense he says.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:07
Who knows how much he believes, but.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:08
And then he goes and sells, you know, vitamins and I don't know, all kinds of crazy stuff that he sells.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:13
And he's even said in court that he doesn't really believe in him and he's just trying to sell pills.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:17
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:18
So it doesn't matter.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:19
People still listen.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:20
I mean, that gets back to our.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:21
How this tribalness that we have and we want this information, we want to be lied to, basically, Right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:18:26
Yeah.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:26
Because hearing what we want.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:28
But yeah.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:29
So can it.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:30
Could it be used for good?
David Beckmeyer 00:18:31
Potentially.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:32
But I think this gets back to our innate.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:34
The challenge.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:34
I mean, every time a technology has come out, you know, with this idea that somehow it'll solve our problems and make.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:41
Make the world better, it's often just created more division and loud misinformation to spread better, going all the way back to the printing press and 150 years of wars over the church.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:52
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:52
So this is not new.
David Beckmeyer 00:18:53
Like, every time these technologies come out, rna, human tendencies come out and you get sort of the good and the bad with it and finding how to sort of tease out the good and.
David Beckmeyer 00:19:04
And somehow make the good win and win the day.
David Beckmeyer 00:19:07
It has historically been a challenge.
David Beckmeyer 00:19:09
And I don't know what that answer is.
David Beckmeyer 00:19:11
I do, you know, kind of believe there's some possibility that maybe AI could be applied In a good way on this.
David Beckmeyer 00:19:17
But again, you're back to that.
David Beckmeyer 00:19:18
It also can be applied in really horrible ways.
Jesse Hirsch 00:19:21
Well, and, And.
Jesse Hirsch 00:19:21
And hopefully we'll sort of come back and end around that in terms of, I suspect, use of incentivizing.
Jesse Hirsch 00:19:29
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:19:29
And rewarding people in terms of their desire for attention and their des.
Jesse Hirsch 00:19:33
Dopamine could be engineered to get the outcomes we desire.
Jesse Hirsch 00:19:38
And I do want to come back to that, but I'm curious to kind of open up outrage overload as both a concept, a phrase, and then fundamentally a journey or a path that you've been on.
Jesse Hirsch 00:19:55
Because for me, outrage overload kind of evokes a system breakdown.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:00
Like, on the one hand, I sort of imagine the overload of the individual, right, where this is a kind of sensory overload.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:08
But then there's the democratic implication, right, that this is overloading.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:13
I think it already has overloaded our democratic capacity to handle disputes, to handle disagreements, to handle conflict.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:24
Give me a sense of, you know, the narrative, the.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:28
The kind of.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:29
What's the word I'm looking for here, the direction, the momentum of outrage overload.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:34
And as I describe this, I almost imagine thinking of Dune, that you're riding Shai Hulud, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:42
You're riding this big worm that is outrage overload, and you're holding onto it, trying to say, hey, here's what's going on.
Jesse Hirsch 00:20:50
Please enlighten me.
David Beckmeyer 00:20:52
Yeah, no, the way you characterize it in the beginning is really perfect because there is this sort of individual side of it, because outrage is itself using outrage.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:00
You know, it's kind of a placeholder for this whole set of emotions, often anger, moral indignation, stuff like that.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:06
And it has a place in society.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:08
It has a place in human history and society.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:10
There's evolutionary biology.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:12
We believe that outrage was sort of invented as a way to enforce social norms so that those groups could stay together.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:18
This goes back, you know, tens of thousands of years.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:21
And so it's very innate in our brain.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:23
But.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:24
But if you're just swimming in it, obviously it doesn't serve that purpose anymore.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:28
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:29
And that's where the overload side comes in.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:31
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:31
So should we be outraged at some things?
David Beckmeyer 00:21:34
Probably, yes.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:34
I mean, I'm not saying you shouldn't be outraged.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:36
There's probably things that deserve are being outraged about it.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:39
Maybe when you go learn about them, you'll find I should be more outraged about that thing.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:42
But there are a lot of things we're outraged about just for no reason.
David Beckmeyer 00:21:45
Like, it's a small enough thing that there's better ways to spend our time and it's causing us to lose the ability to do the thing we talked before, which is be critical of media and be a critical thinker because it turns off that part of our brain, our emotions kick in, all these other flight and fight and all this kind of stuff kicks in and we're not very good at being a logical being anymore.
David Beckmeyer 00:22:07
So.
David Beckmeyer 00:22:08
Yeah, and then like you say, then that extends into society, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:22:11
So people have figured out this works, whether accidental, like just kind of randomly running algorithms until they get the engagement they want or whether actively, you know, in media and a whole industry of folks that know that this is the way they're going to have to keep viewership.
David Beckmeyer 00:22:26
And it's back to that word you use in earlier, the incentive thing, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:22:30
So how do we flip those incentives in some way that you know, and then some.
David Beckmeyer 00:22:34
That starts with us, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:22:35
We have to stop wanting to stop, we have to stop clicking on it.
David Beckmeyer 00:22:38
We have to stop, you know, viewing it when, or calling them out when they use these kind of techniques.
David Beckmeyer 00:22:42
And that's hard, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:22:43
I mean, because you get caught up in it and require, it's going to require us to do it.
David Beckmeyer 00:22:47
But I do believe bottom up movements can happen and I think that's probably the way, the way out of this.
David Beckmeyer 00:22:52
But yeah, that's exactly what you're saying.
David Beckmeyer 00:22:54
It's like it's, it's, it's outrage is a good thing, but not when you're just swimming in it and you can't tell the difference between what's hurting you and what's not.
Jesse Hirsch 00:23:03
Well, and it also strikes me, as you've alluded to earlier, the group dynamics here are crucial because on the one hand there's a kind of snowball effect combined with the fear of missing out.
Jesse Hirsch 00:23:15
Where you want to be part of the pylon, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:23:18
You want to be part of the powerful side of the mobile.
Jesse Hirsch 00:23:22
The same way that if that's coming at you, it's very terrifying.
Jesse Hirsch 00:23:26
And that is another kind of overload.
Jesse Hirsch 00:23:28
And there are unfortunately a lot of people on the Internet who have had to experience that.
Jesse Hirsch 00:23:34
How do we build a culture of solidarity, a culture of community defense, so that it's not just that we discourage each other from engaging in that behavior.
Jesse Hirsch 00:23:47
And I'm seeing this on airplanes more often that when someone has an episode on an airplane, more of the other passengers are standing up to the defense of maybe they're harassing the staff, maybe they're harassing a person.
Jesse Hirsch 00:24:00
It seems like there's a greater community responsibility coming on.
Jesse Hirsch 00:24:04
But on the Internet, that's harder.
Jesse Hirsch 00:24:06
On the Internet, it's easy to just go away or close the window.
Jesse Hirsch 00:24:10
Is there a need for that kind of.
Jesse Hirsch 00:24:13
You're describing the incentives to create the alternative.
Jesse Hirsch 00:24:18
Is there a need to create a similar group dynamic that is a positive force rather than fueling this outrage and fueling the kind of emotions that go with it?
David Beckmeyer 00:24:30
Well, yeah, I mean, there's definitely some of this going on.
David Beckmeyer 00:24:34
I mean, this is one thing to keep in mind that there are lots of groups out there kind of recognizing that this is a problem and, and that there's working on ways out.
David Beckmeyer 00:24:42
Do people have all the answers or we got it figured out and do they have enough traction yet?
David Beckmeyer 00:24:46
You know, probably not.
David Beckmeyer 00:24:47
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:24:49
But.
David Beckmeyer 00:24:49
And maybe that's a problem.
David Beckmeyer 00:24:50
It's too.
David Beckmeyer 00:24:51
There's too many organizations, and we somehow need to consolidate a little bit in some way.
David Beckmeyer 00:24:54
But, but there is.
David Beckmeyer 00:24:55
There are some movements.
David Beckmeyer 00:24:56
Movements on this, I think.
David Beckmeyer 00:24:58
Yeah.
David Beckmeyer 00:24:59
And I think this, this idea of, of, you know, the airplane example that you use, you know, that can go too far too.
David Beckmeyer 00:25:05
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:25:05
Because now you can, you can find.
David Beckmeyer 00:25:07
Find that now suddenly all kinds of things are.
David Beckmeyer 00:25:10
Are not acceptable in certain situations.
David Beckmeyer 00:25:13
And, and you are starting to make it, you know.
David Beckmeyer 00:25:16
Well, I say social media is a perfect example of this where you talked about you.
David Beckmeyer 00:25:20
It's easier to just walk away.
David Beckmeyer 00:25:21
Well, and that's part of the problem because now it creates this perception because the loud voices are who stick around.
David Beckmeyer 00:25:26
It creates this misperception that they represent a larger group than they really do because a lot of the people that, like, are more, like, more soft on this or have a more rational view of it are like, I'm out.
David Beckmeyer 00:25:37
I can't deal with this.
David Beckmeyer 00:25:38
I got better things to do.
David Beckmeyer 00:25:39
So all you get are those loud voices.
David Beckmeyer 00:25:41
So you get a misperception of the world as being more sort of polarized emotionally than it really is.
Jesse Hirsch 00:25:47
Well, and allow me then, to bring that right to the core of politics, because I think what you just described is what we're seeing in the electoral space, that, that smart people, rational people, sane people are staying the hell away from politics.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:03
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:03
There's zero incentives for them to be mocked, attacked.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:09
There's a certain level of vicious partisanness that I think alienates a lot of smart and sensible people who go, I just like the Internet.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:18
I just don't want to be part of that.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:20
And we as a society suffer, right, because we don't get the best and brightest in office and in our body.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:29
Instead, we get the loudest and those who covet power the most.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:34
And so I'm curious, in terms of this outrage loop, how do we, to your point, how do we switch that culture, acknowledging that this culture is strong and being constantly reinforced?
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:50
Because while you acknowledge.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:51
And maybe.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:52
Actually, I have two questions now forming, so I'll stick to the political one.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:56
You acknowledge that there are organizations trying to stop this.
Jesse Hirsch 00:26:59
And it strikes me, fundamentally what we have is an outside of government problem, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:27:06
This is not the state.
Jesse Hirsch 00:27:07
This is not the Department of Justice.
Jesse Hirsch 00:27:09
This is.
Jesse Hirsch 00:27:10
Social media is not actually a public square because the public state, the government does not have power to enforce there.
Jesse Hirsch 00:27:18
And Meta, for example, has just said, hey, we're backing off moderation, forget about it.
Jesse Hirsch 00:27:23
You guys say whatever you want.
Jesse Hirsch 00:27:25
Is there a danger then, and I'm being hyperbolic here deliberately, is there a danger here then, in vigilantism, that rather than focusing on social norms, rather than focusing on social institutions, we're instead just escalating the information war by, you know, unfortunately saying the other side is winning.
Jesse Hirsch 00:27:47
We need different tactics.
Jesse Hirsch 00:27:48
We can't use the methods that the other side is using, because then we're just the other side.
Jesse Hirsch 00:27:54
But we're also not creating the type of governance and responsibility and trust that we would think we would need in a democratic society.
Jesse Hirsch 00:28:03
Am I off base here?
Jesse Hirsch 00:28:05
Again, this is the political scientist in me going, where is legitimate power within this larger context?
David Beckmeyer 00:28:15
Yeah, well, certainly, first of all, on the, on the sort of politician side, even if they are, you know, sort of more moderate in their views or more moderate in their.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:24
They would prefer to be more moderate in the way they interact with the opposing party.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:28
They can't even do that anymore.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:30
Like, that now has become something that will get them canceled or whatever you might want to call it, that their own people will go after them if they're too nice or, you know, they're willing to compromise.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:39
Just.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:39
We've made compromise a bad word, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:28:41
And it's like the only way to get anything done is compromise.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:44
People like you can't always get your way.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:47
And, you know, and there's certainly.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:48
I'm not saying you can't have issues you won't compromise on, but the reality is you have to build coalitions to make things happen.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:55
And so you can't just always get your way.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:57
But.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:57
But.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:57
And we've made that a bad word.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:58
So, yeah, within.
David Beckmeyer 00:28:59
Even within politicians, if they are not so much just this crazy, they almost have to pretend to be this, you know, this kind of wild Extreme, because their own people, they'll get black from their own people for not doing that.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:10
And I think to the, to the platforms and what could happen, obviously, we've kind of seen it, right.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:15
I mean, look at the changes in Twitter slash X over the last couple of years.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:19
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:19
I mean, it's become a cesspool of misinformation.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:22
And, you know, and it's.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:24
And it's.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:25
You know, there's probably.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:26
It says.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:27
It's this challenge of there's lots of good information on these platforms.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:29
It's just hard to weed it out.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:30
Like, where is the good information?
David Beckmeyer 00:29:32
How do you tell the difference?
David Beckmeyer 00:29:33
And that.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:33
That's a heavy lift for the average person to.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:36
To work with.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:37
And so you're overwhelmed.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:38
I mean, it's.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:38
What is Bannon's thing?
David Beckmeyer 00:29:39
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:40
Just throw BS at the wall and.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:42
And that will, you know, that just was it.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:44
Flood the zone, I think he said.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:45
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:46
And.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:46
And that works.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:47
I mean, that basically you have to say the guy's winning.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:49
Right?
David Beckmeyer 00:29:49
The guy's.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:50
He wants to destroy the.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:51
The administrative state.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:52
He's.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:52
He's achieving it with essentially what the word that you use, this information warfare idea.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:58
So, yeah, I don't.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:59
It's.
David Beckmeyer 00:29:59
It's.
David Beckmeyer 00:30:00
I'm trying not to be the negative nanny here or whatever, because I try to bring positive messages, but it's a challenging landscape, for sure.
David Beckmeyer 00:30:07
I mean, we have diseases like polio coming back and things like that.
David Beckmeyer 00:30:11
And so it's a dismiss information world.
David Beckmeyer 00:30:14
It's a challenging landscape.
Jesse Hirsch 00:30:16
Well, and I think to your point about the public health dynamics, I think there's a side to this larger battle, and I think framing it as a battle is problematic, but it is right now, until we get a ceasefire, it is a battle is that the scientists, the institutional authorities, they've kind of sat it out, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:30:36
Because they recognize that the other side isn't playing by the rules, that they're using tactics that are unfair and vicious, especially in terms of some of the death threats targeted or now the threat of prosecution against Dr.
Jesse Hirsch 00:30:52
Fauci.
Jesse Hirsch 00:30:53
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:30:54
But at the same time, there really isn't.
Jesse Hirsch 00:30:58
To bring it back to podcasting.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:00
I'm both pleased and disappointed at this talk of, oh, the left needs a Joe Rogan or the Democrats need a podcasting kind of ecosystem, the way that the right has a podcasting ecosystem, which that happened with talk radio, that happened with cable news.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:17
It's a recurring phenomena.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:19
But at the same time, it doesn't feel as if the people who have power, the people who have the expertise, have the scientific know how as if they are willing to wade into these public battles.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:35
And part of me gets it because they're probably going to get clobbered before they have a chance of getting their point across.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:41
I'm curious what you think.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:43
Is this something in which we need to be asking those leaders, we need to be asking those experts, academics, community leaders to kind of, you know, engage more, or is the deck stacked against them?
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:57
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:31:57
Is it a situation in which the casino's always going to win and they're smart by not really wading into the morass that has become our public discourse?
David Beckmeyer 00:32:09
Yeah, I think there's a lot of things going on there.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:11
I mean, one is the trust thing we talked about.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:13
But one challenge is a very legitimate.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:15
I had David Helfand, who is a longtime astrophysicist and tries to go out and talk about various science things and communicate.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:23
Know, he just talked about how he, you know, basically science communications are not very good at telling stories and convincing people.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:30
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:31
They.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:32
It's.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:32
So that's a challenge.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:33
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:33
So you.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:35
And, you know, we need those storytellers.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:38
So we had, you know, people like Carl Sagan and we had people like Burke, the, the English science communicator, forgetting his name now.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:49
But I'm sure you know who I'm talking about.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:50
You did like, connections.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:52
James Burke.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:53
James Burke, yeah.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:54
Folks like that.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:54
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:32:55
We need more folks like that that can communicate some of this science and bring it down to a level and get that message through with storytelling.
David Beckmeyer 00:33:01
And, you know, I'm, I'm sort of thinking about how can I.
David Beckmeyer 00:33:06
I help do that, you know, and as I need to do more of that on my show because I still often, I mean, we do storytelling through interviews a little bit, but I have to do more storytelling to get some of these messages across because I've, you know, I've had listeners come back and say, you know, this thing, this thing, this thing.
David Beckmeyer 00:33:19
And I said, dude, we talked about that on episode, you know, 32.
David Beckmeyer 00:33:23
And we talked about that on, you know, but clearly it's my problem.
David Beckmeyer 00:33:25
I didn't get the message across.
David Beckmeyer 00:33:27
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:33:27
And so I think we have to take.
David Beckmeyer 00:33:29
I think the scientists typical community has to take the responsibility for being poor at communication, basically.
David Beckmeyer 00:33:34
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:33:34
And I think Democrats as at large do as well.
David Beckmeyer 00:33:36
I mean, I think they've really struggled to communicate with that segment of the sort of mass.
David Beckmeyer 00:33:42
The masses.
Jesse Hirsch 00:33:43
Well.
Jesse Hirsch 00:33:44
And in their defense, you know, lying is easier.
Jesse Hirsch 00:33:48
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:33:48
Like, if you're just going to make stuff up versus scientists tend to feel a commitment to not misrepresenting the science or even exaggerating the science versus going with people who are literally just making the nonsense up as they go along.
David Beckmeyer 00:34:02
Well, yeah, you're absolutely right about that.
David Beckmeyer 00:34:04
And I failed to kind of talk about that a little bit too, because, yeah, it is an unfair playing field a little bit.
David Beckmeyer 00:34:08
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:34:08
Because we sort of sometimes position disinformation on one side and quality news reporting or something on the other, but they're very different.
David Beckmeyer 00:34:19
Quality news reporting is simply trying to give you the.
David Beckmeyer 00:34:22
The information you need to make a decision if it's really quality journalism.
David Beckmeyer 00:34:26
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:34:27
Whereas disinformation is trying to take you someplace and have an outcome.
David Beckmeyer 00:34:31
And so those two things are not opposites.
David Beckmeyer 00:34:33
Like, they're not.
David Beckmeyer 00:34:35
One doesn't.
David Beckmeyer 00:34:35
You don't defeat one with the other.
David Beckmeyer 00:34:37
You kind of need a disinformation campaign, or you need a propaganda campaign and anti propaganda propaganda a little bit to actually fight disinformation.
Jesse Hirsch 00:34:48
And that's where, you know, unfortunately, the journalism crisis is obviously complicating this, because in an ideal democratic society, you'd have a strong culture of journalism, which was the counter to disinformation.
Jesse Hirsch 00:35:03
You'd have science saying, you know, here's what we're Lear, here's what we're researching, here's how we respond to a pandemic or the climate threat.
Jesse Hirsch 00:35:12
And then you have journalists who are saying, yeah, that Alex Jones guy.
Jesse Hirsch 00:35:15
No, those supplements are snake oil.
Jesse Hirsch 00:35:18
The conspiracies he's peddling are designed to make you afraid.
Jesse Hirsch 00:35:22
But the journalism has kind of fallen apart for a bunch of different reasons, partly economic, partly technological.
Jesse Hirsch 00:35:31
But I think where the journalism crisis and the science communication inadequacies, where they're a little united, is the clutching onto objectivity.
Jesse Hirsch 00:35:44
And where I think objectivity as a concept has a role and should evolve.
Jesse Hirsch 00:35:51
Science is teaching us that we are subjective beings and that as you were saying, within our ancestral brain and our social and collective kind of connections, Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:36:03
We're far easily trusting the people around us and the people we love, even if they're spouting nonsense sense compared to a legitimate, verified, credible expert who spent their entire life around a little bit of research.
Jesse Hirsch 00:36:19
And I think the issue there comes down to we want to see people's humanity.
Jesse Hirsch 00:36:25
We want to see their authenticity.
Jesse Hirsch 00:36:27
And this is where Neil DeGrasse Tyson, he's not perfect, but he is a credible science communicator because he's himself and you get a sense that he's himself.
Jesse Hirsch 00:36:38
And I think the Journalists, the science communicators, the people who are leaning away from objectivity and more to their honest, humble perspective.
Jesse Hirsch 00:36:52
I'm seeing that as a much more viable way of how people communicate.
Jesse Hirsch 00:36:56
Unfortunately, those folks are on TikTok and they may be SOL real fast.
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:03
But I'm curious again, through your own experiences, especially vis a vis your audience relations, because I thought that was a really powerful example.
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:12
How do you see your own relationship with objectivity?
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:16
Because you're dealing with emotion, you're talking to people about often the irrational side of their thinking and their psychology.
Jesse Hirsch 00:37:25
Where do you, as a guide, as an educator, as a host, where do you fall within that spectrum and how do you manage it yourself in terms of the tone that you take on your show and the way that you relate to your constituency or community?
David Beckmeyer 00:37:42
Yeah, again, there's a little bit of a meta aspect of this as well, because again, I'm sort of talking about how storytelling is the way to do things and I'm often presenting it with facts.
David Beckmeyer 00:37:53
So I fall into the same problem.
David Beckmeyer 00:37:55
But, but, but, yeah, I mean, it's a message that I really try to work on, is that this, we have this assumption sometimes you could call it like naive realism, where we assume the way we see the world is how everybody else will see.
David Beckmeyer 00:38:07
If we had the same facts, we'd come to the same conclusion.
David Beckmeyer 00:38:11
And you know, that's clearly not, not how things work, you know, and, and, and facts are, play a role in it.
David Beckmeyer 00:38:17
And so, but a lot of people see, and this has been true in science communication for a long time, that there was this idea of information deficit, I think was the theory and this idea that if we just give more information, we'll, we'll, we'll close that gap and everyone will come to the same thinking on this.
David Beckmeyer 00:38:31
And it's clearly shown that that doesn't work, that that's not how things work.
David Beckmeyer 00:38:34
So, you know, a lot of people talk about there's a fact gap, and that's true.
David Beckmeyer 00:38:37
There are.
David Beckmeyer 00:38:38
We learn our bubbles and there's some fat gap.
David Beckmeyer 00:38:40
But even when the facts, when we have shared facts, if you don't talk about objectivity, even if we have shared facts, it doesn't mean we're going to come to the same conclusions from those facts.
David Beckmeyer 00:38:48
And that's where people have a hard time.
David Beckmeyer 00:38:50
Like, how could you not come to this conclusion?
David Beckmeyer 00:38:53
Like, you late.
David Beckmeyer 00:38:53
You literally see people saying they must be literally insane that they did not come to the same conclusion as me.
David Beckmeyer 00:38:59
And that's where we have to get better at appreciating that and get better that empathy side to.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:04
To try to understand how people view things.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:06
And I think this is one reason why on my show, sometimes I'll say the same thing in different episodes with different guests in different ways, because people take away what they take away day and.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:15
And it's almost like if you're going to talk to your kid, I don't know if you have kids, but if you're going to talk to your kid about.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:20
About reproduction, like, you know, the story you tell them at five years old is going to be a lot different than the story you tell them at 7.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:25
And, and you have.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:26
You can't just give that story once at 5 and say, I'm done.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:29
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:29
You know, you're gonna.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:30
They're gonna get a different thing out of it every time you.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:32
You talk about that story.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:34
And, and at, you know, at some point, hopefully they'll understand it all right?
David Beckmeyer 00:39:37
But.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:38
But it's the same.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:39
Same sort of thing here.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:40
People take away what they take away, and you have to almost present the same issue, maybe in different ways to get it across.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:46
And I think that's a lesson that people don't appreciate in their own lives.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:51
Like, they really still think, I can charge into the room, lay out my facts, and win the day.
David Beckmeyer 00:39:57
And I think the biggest thing we lose about that is we don't understand that even if you win, you lose when you do that.
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:03
And I think that's sort of the power of podcasting, that it's much more about emergence and dialogue rather than persuasion.
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:10
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:11
It's not some PowerPoint where someone's like, here's why you need to do this.
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:15
It's people talking and exploring a concept and an idea.
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:19
And that's where only because I feel I would be just as guilty of the hypocrisy as you've acknowledged.
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:25
I also promote storytelling and narrative, and yet at the same time, often just end up doing exactly what we're doing.
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:31
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:32
We're just not so much crafting a clear narrative, but getting into arguments and sharing ideas.
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:38
And I do think that that is a form of storytel.
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:42
And I think to your point about not so much repetition, but iteration, where you're telling kind of the same concept or making the same argument and using different language.
Jesse Hirsch 00:40:52
I think that's tremendously important from an accessibility perspective because everyone has a different frame of reference for where they came from.
Jesse Hirsch 00:41:00
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:41:01
What they're thinking about now, who they've read, what they've listened to.
Jesse Hirsch 00:41:04
And I think that Speaks to, as we sort of segue to the common ground part, why we've heard all sorts about echo chambers and filter bubbles and I think you and I have been talking about their predecessor, which is the community, right, the family.
Jesse Hirsch 00:41:21
How our ideas, our conceptions are very social and our peers, for example, often have way more influence on us than our parents in terms of the kids.
Jesse Hirsch 00:41:35
And how as parents we want our kids to be one way, but their friends almost certainly shift them in another.
Jesse Hirsch 00:41:43
But I really liked how you touched upon empathy.
Jesse Hirsch 00:41:46
And I definitely believe that empathy is the key to effective communication, period, full stop.
Jesse Hirsch 00:41:52
But also to countering this culture, the culture of outrage, the culture of toxicity we have.
Jesse Hirsch 00:42:00
How do we, and in particular in the online remote sense, how do we infuse more empathy into how we not just discuss, but discuss contentious issues?
Jesse Hirsch 00:42:11
Right, Because I think that's where it can be most difficult for people and that's when they tend to withdraw from empathic attitudes and get more into combative ones.
David Beckmeyer 00:42:22
Yeah.
David Beckmeyer 00:42:23
Well, leaving the social media part and the digital world set aside for just a moment, I think I want to say a couple things on the idea of common ground.
David Beckmeyer 00:42:34
Right?
David Beckmeyer 00:42:34
So sometimes people, if you talk about common ground, they turn off, they're like, oh, you're just trying to get me to be a milk toast, you know, not have any position on anything.
David Beckmeyer 00:42:43
And I'll, and I'll let these people that I think have really terrible ideas have their way.
David Beckmeyer 00:42:47
And, and you know, that's really not what we're saying.
David Beckmeyer 00:42:49
I mean, often we're talking about, sometimes we are talking common ground.
David Beckmeyer 00:42:53
There are applications of common ground for like, if you're going to work together as a community on some project, you're probably gonna need some common ground to be able to sit down and do that.
David Beckmeyer 00:43:00
But we're not always only talking about that.
David Beckmeyer 00:43:02
Sometimes we're just talking about, about shared humanity, common humanity, seeing humanity with the others and, and being less extreme, be more realistic.
David Beckmeyer 00:43:10
Actually it's better to say more realistic because the reality is those extreme positions you have in your head aren't a reflection of reality.
David Beckmeyer 00:43:15
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:43:16
Nobody fits this very, I mean, somebody, maybe one person somewhere fits the stereotype you have for your political rivals, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:43:22
Nobody really is like that.
David Beckmeyer 00:43:24
Like, when you go meet real people, you find they're not really like that stereotype that you have.
David Beckmeyer 00:43:28
And so you know, that, that, and you know, clearly all the, you know, the folks working in this space doing these kind of things, having these kind of cross dialogue conversations and, and so like that, you know, show this to be true, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:43:39
That, that when you, you get an opportunity.
David Beckmeyer 00:43:42
Because we often don't have an opportunity for these kind of conversations that aren't so heated that they go off the rails.
David Beckmeyer 00:43:47
When you have those exposure to that, you do, you know, gain some of that humanity and you start to have more empathy for their positions and all that kind of stuff.
David Beckmeyer 00:43:55
Now that is really hard to scale, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:43:58
To just do it with conversations plus just doing the conversation doesn't ne necessarily like that's work.
David Beckmeyer 00:44:03
Like why would I do that?
David Beckmeyer 00:44:04
Like, you know, so there's, you sort of got to have some reason to do that.
David Beckmeyer 00:44:07
And that reason to do that might be as an advocate for something and you know, that, you know, what is the line.
David Beckmeyer 00:44:12
I forget who said this one too.
David Beckmeyer 00:44:13
But like if you're going to, you know, solve a problem or you're going to, you know, stop being in a war, you don't talk to your friends, you talk to your enemy, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:44:22
And, and, and so that's what we have to get.
David Beckmeyer 00:44:24
So us getting in a room with a bunch of like minded people and arguing about the other side isn't going to change anything, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:44:29
You're going to have to start figuring out the other side and empathy is how you start to have some.
David Beckmeyer 00:44:35
I think that we've been coached that every idea they have is terrible.
David Beckmeyer 00:44:38
They're terrible people, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:44:39
And we believe it, that we've been, we bought into that, that we really think these other side is evil.
David Beckmeyer 00:44:43
And now you can't negotiate with evil, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:44:45
So when you, but when you actually go, you know, interact with real people and you're ready to be real about listening and, and, and hearing their position, you may find that there is some, you can see a rational argument for how they are think about the world.
David Beckmeyer 00:45:01
You may not agree with it.
David Beckmeyer 00:45:02
And this is the other thing that really frustrates me.
David Beckmeyer 00:45:04
And I'm going to get, you're going to get me going here in a minute.
David Beckmeyer 00:45:06
But one of the things that really frustrates me, a lot of people think letting the other side tell, express their views is somehow agreeing with them.
David Beckmeyer 00:45:13
Like you don't have to change your mind to let them express their views like you, you aren't obliged to change your mind.
David Beckmeyer 00:45:20
Like we're not, I'm not always telling you to change your mind, but if you are an advocate for your position, you're going to be a much better advocate for your position.
David Beckmeyer 00:45:29
If you understand those opposing views and even have some, maybe some empathy for how they arrive at Those views.
David Beckmeyer 00:45:35
And this is what often people like, a bridge people can't seem to cross, Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:45:40
That they can't seem to understand that if you want to be an advocate, you're going to be a much better one by having.
David Beckmeyer 00:45:45
By appreciating those opposing views.
Jesse Hirsch 00:45:48
Well, and I would argue even a better human being, right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:45:51
A better partner, a better parent, a better person in the world.
Jesse Hirsch 00:45:56
Because you said a couple things I want to tease out.
Jesse Hirsch 00:45:58
One, that every human being fundamentally is unique and I would argue contradictory.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:04
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:05
So however you imagine your ideological opponent, not only are they not that, but they probably have their own contradictions that you also do.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:15
And we need to afford that level of humanity and humility, I think, in our politics.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:21
But the other side to this too is, I think.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:25
And this is problematic because the other point I think you argued was for nuance, because you acknowledge that there are a lot of people who are like, no, you can't give the other side an inch, or why would you be civil when the other side is so disrespectful?
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:41
And that to me is just a race to the block, bottom right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:45
It's a race to conflict without any chance of resolution.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:51
And this is paradoxical.
Jesse Hirsch 00:46:53
I do feel we need a base level of respect that even amongst people who hate each other, there needs to be for a society to exist.
Jesse Hirsch 00:47:02
There needs to be a base level of respect, a base level of social norm.
Jesse Hirsch 00:47:06
And I do fear that in the online world, we've lost that.
Jesse Hirsch 00:47:11
I think in Face to Face, that's still kind of there, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:47:14
There is still.
Jesse Hirsch 00:47:15
You know, to your point, this is all easier face to face.
Jesse Hirsch 00:47:18
It's easier to connect to someone's humanity.
Jesse Hirsch 00:47:20
It's easier to connect to someone's empathy.
Jesse Hirsch 00:47:23
And I say this more for our audience because, you know, I love to share these kind of personal anecdotes.
Jesse Hirsch 00:47:29
I paradoxically identify as a Jewish Communist.
Jesse Hirsch 00:47:32
And while that's both a historically accurate but contemporarily oxymoronic identity, I was a member of a very conservative golf club for about 10 years.
Jesse Hirsch 00:47:44
And not only did nobody at that golf club know that I was a communist because this was a very right wing, you know, whatever, but we were all friends, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:47:53
These are people who are ideologically on the other end of the spectrum of me, right, who I have very little in common with, but the golf club created an environment of respect.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:04
It created an environment of civility.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:06
We weren't there to debate taxation.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:09
We were there to enjoy the outdoors.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:11
We were there to enjoy each other's time.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:14
And it was transformative for me because on the one hand, I was this huge outlier.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:19
There were certainly no other Jewish radicals at the golf club, maybe only one other Jew at the golf club.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:25
But to be able to connect with these conservatives, right, with these people who was so rewarding for me because it humanized my opponents.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:36
It humanized all the people who politically, I would never agree with.
Jesse Hirsch 00:48:41
But socially, I live in the same world as I wish that there was a way for other people to have similar experiences to that, where on the one hand, I'm confident enough in my identity that I know who I am and I don't have to go to a golf club and feel I need to conform, But I'm also able to open myself to other people's views and other people's perspectives.
Jesse Hirsch 00:49:04
Ironically, my experience at the golf club probably made me more of a radical than I was going in because I got a greater sense of sort of what these people's attitudes were and more.
Jesse Hirsch 00:49:16
But I have been privileged enough to be in situations with people right across the political spectrum, and they're all human beings, right?
Jesse Hirsch 00:49:24
They all breathe, they all fart, they all eat, they all do those things.
Jesse Hirsch 00:49:29
And I have struggled since then to think about how we recreate that, how we create environments in which your humanity is all that matters.
Jesse Hirsch 00:49:40
Not your views, your faith, your attitude on particular policies.
Jesse Hirsch 00:49:47
Has that come up in your many conversations in terms of how do we get back to that point where people who are ideological enemies, people who are disagree, can still drink beer, smoke a dube, shake hands and hang out with each other?
David Beckmeyer 00:50:03
Oh, yeah, for sure.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:05
Both in terms of scientific research where people have studied this, and also with the practitioners.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:09
Right?
David Beckmeyer 00:50:09
So one.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:10
One group has an idea of this, uses the word dignity.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:17
Like they prefer dignity over respect.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:19
So you're affording your.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:20
These opponents, your political rivals, or whoever you're having.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:23
Having a conflict with, you know, dignity.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:25
And they have this scale called the Dignity Dignity Index.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:28
And you can look it up, and they have a lot of information on that.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:31
This is like this 1 to 8 scale from contempt P to dignity.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:35
And I think that's a.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:37
I use that scale often when I'm in my.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:38
And I think, you know, I think they.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:40
They created this and they admit this.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:42
They kind of created this as a tool to measure or rate the people on the other side.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:47
I think it's a much more useful tool.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:48
And they have found the same thing too, to sort of rate your own speech and rate.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:51
Rate folks on your own side, like, am I Affording my, My rival dignity.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:56
So that's, that's one example of that.
David Beckmeyer 00:50:57
And there's lots of other, that kind of work out there in terms of the, A lot of the research and some of the groups working on this, on that example you talked about, about, of, you know, getting to spending time with somebody in an environment where politics is not the central identity factor of that sort of the premise of the interaction is, you know, always a great thing because that way if politics does come up later, you'll at least have some amount of benefit of the doubt because you do see them as human.
David Beckmeyer 00:51:27
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:51:27
And so you can, you know, go play video games together, something like that, that, and get to know them as a regular person.
David Beckmeyer 00:51:33
That, That's a huge factor in this.
David Beckmeyer 00:51:35
And.
David Beckmeyer 00:51:35
But these are heavy lifts, right?
David Beckmeyer 00:51:36
So to go do that, especially if someone, you know, is sort of a political opposite, it's.
David Beckmeyer 00:51:42
It's a heavy lift.
David Beckmeyer 00:51:42
I mean, and I, and I of course always say, you got to do what you can do.
David Beckmeyer 00:51:45
We only have so much emotional energy.
David Beckmeyer 00:51:47
But some of the things we talked about before, if you do, you know, start to look at some of these things with a more rational lens and a more critical lens, you know, not only will, you know, you're helping society better, helping yourself, I mean, you're going to, your mental health is going to be so much better if you're not just constantly in fear of everything around you.
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:05
Yeah.
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:05
And I think that kind of mental health is contagious in a positive sense.
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:10
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:10
That you start helping other people sort of feel good.
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:13
And that's why I sort of titled this episode Making Sense of the Nonsense and that I think the consequence of outrage, overload is mental health crisis.
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:21
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:22
Is people not really understanding how to navigate their world, how to participate in their democracy.
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:28
So I kind of want to end on that notion of incentives.
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:31
Right.
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:32
As part of your journey, as part of your research, as part of your discussions, have you started to see incentives, whether psychological, whether technological, whether economic, whether social, that help us foster dignity, regard other people with dignity and respect ourselves in so much as we think about how we treat others and the benefits of doing things?
Jesse Hirsch 00:52:58
So, yeah.
David Beckmeyer 00:52:59
And from my, for my, for the experience, from my little show, the best way to that I, the most obvious way I see that is, is it from.
David Beckmeyer 00:53:07
At the individual level where that incentive related to that mental health, like people are just, they're overloaded, you know, they're overwhelmed, they're.
David Beckmeyer 00:53:14
They feel like they're drowning.
David Beckmeyer 00:53:15
There's all these metaphors, you can use and, and that's like the trigger to say I want to understand this better and for my, you know, starting and I always talk about that too.
David Beckmeyer 00:53:24
Like do this for yourself first.
David Beckmeyer 00:53:25
First then you can worry about society and the world and the planet and everything else.
David Beckmeyer 00:53:28
But you know, you can't be a very good advocate if you're losing.
David Beckmeyer 00:53:33
If you're losing it.
Jesse Hirsch 00:53:34
Yeah.
David Beckmeyer 00:53:35
And so that, that's probably the biggest incentive I see in individuals is that they just need to re like, you know, they just, they're just beginning to see that they're falling apart and, and this is not good for their health and physical too.
David Beckmeyer 00:53:47
I mean this stuff, the stress carries over into physical, your physical health as well.
David Beckmeyer 00:53:51
So that's probably the first incentive there in terms of incentives like in the larger system frankly it's a, that's, you know I talked to Peter Coleman, he's with an organization called.
David Beckmeyer 00:54:01
Well he's a lot of organizations but works with, starts with us among others and he's a professor and other things.
David Beckmeyer 00:54:05
But he's one of the big leaders in this space for many decades.
David Beckmeyer 00:54:08
You know, he says, well I have to say I've been in this space for a long time and it's not a feel good space.
David Beckmeyer 00:54:12
You don't always get, you know, you don't always feel like you're seeing progress, you know, so it is challenging and when you look at the bigger picture, it is challenging.
David Beckmeyer 00:54:19
Right.
David Beckmeyer 00:54:20
You have all these disincentives, right.
David Beckmeyer 00:54:21
The opposite incentives that are going to be hard to overcome.
David Beckmeyer 00:54:24
But, but so you know, you know, in the research side of it, you know, you see things like to the most, for the most part many people know how you could make social media a better force.
David Beckmeyer 00:54:35
But there's no like, like they're not going to do it.
David Beckmeyer 00:54:37
Like the company aren't going to do it because it's going to affect their bottom line until we can somehow make it flip that.
David Beckmeyer 00:54:42
So that also works for their bottom line.
David Beckmeyer 00:54:44
And I'm not smart enough to have come up with how that is yet, but maybe somebody will figure that out.
Jesse Hirsch 00:54:48
Right on.
Jesse Hirsch 00:54:49
Well, and I think you know, the bottom up, you sort of described there a bottom up process that I see aligned with mental health, which is as individuals we could use this as a way of helping foster greater defenses of our sanity, a greater process of dealing with it.
Jesse Hirsch 00:55:06
Then we can empower our family, our friends, our colleagues, our workplace and that creates this bottom up kind of again virus of sanity that helps people again make sense of the non sand that we find ourselves swimming in.
Jesse Hirsch 00:55:22
That brings us to our last segment, which is the Shoutouts segment.
Jesse Hirsch 00:55:29
This is really designed kind of like a.
Jesse Hirsch 00:55:32
Imagine it like a bibliography.
Jesse Hirsch 00:55:34
This could be a shout out again to someone personal, could be a shout out to someone you've had on your show.
Jesse Hirsch 00:55:41
Could be a shout out to someone you've read recently.
Jesse Hirsch 00:55:43
It's again, designed to let our audience know of people you're thinking about that you think they should pay more attention to.
David Beckmeyer 00:55:53
Yeah, well, I got.
David Beckmeyer 00:55:54
I think I thought about this and I thought, well, I can't not say this person.
David Beckmeyer 00:55:58
There's so many people I could thank and shout out to.
David Beckmeyer 00:56:02
I mean, I've had fantastic acceptance into this world, being sort of a nobody in it, and now making all these connections.
David Beckmeyer 00:56:08
But I'm gonna.
David Beckmeyer 00:56:09
I'm gonna shout out my sister because, you know, of all my family, you know, she.
David Beckmeyer 00:56:16
And also Prep.
David Beckmeyer 00:56:18
I don't know, I guess I shouldn't say I didn't expect it, but it was maybe still a little bit of a surprise.
David Beckmeyer 00:56:22
But other than my wife, she's been the most engaged, you know, and supportive of this journey that I've.
David Beckmeyer 00:56:28
I've embarked on.
David Beckmeyer 00:56:29
And.
David Beckmeyer 00:56:30
And I also want to shout her a little bit because I also think she represents a lot of folks right now.
David Beckmeyer 00:56:35
She's also struggling right now with the results of this election.
David Beckmeyer 00:56:39
So I hope that my show has helped to give her some resilience to this.
David Beckmeyer 00:56:43
But she's struggling, so that's who I was going to shout out.
Jesse Hirsch 00:56:46
Right on.
Jesse Hirsch 00:56:47
And to your point, I think a lot of us are struggling.
Jesse Hirsch 00:56:49
That's what's motivating me as well, is that there's a lot of people I know who are depressed straight out and are really looking for guidance for hope.
Jesse Hirsch 00:57:00
So I thank you, David, because I think you're doing that very much with your show and you've helped me here in terms of what we're doing.
Jesse Hirsch 00:57:06
I want to give a shout out to the association for Media Literacy.
Jesse Hirsch 00:57:11
Neil Anderson and Carol Arkes were two big influences of mine when I was younger and not so young, and they're possibly listening today as well.
Jesse Hirsch 00:57:24
So what's up, Carol?
Jesse Hirsch 00:57:25
How you doing, Neil?
Jesse Hirsch 00:57:27
They've also done great work.
Jesse Hirsch 00:57:29
And so, finally, before we go, how can our audience learn more about what you're doing, connect with your show?
Jesse Hirsch 00:57:35
I brought up your sub stack here only because it's hard to bring up a podcast visually on a podcast, but, you know, tell everyone where they can find you and how they can tune in.
David Beckmeyer 00:57:48
Well, all my all my stuff, all the stuff you wanted to know about the show is that is at a website called outrage overload.net.
David Beckmeyer 00:57:56
that's where we have.
David Beckmeyer 00:57:57
You can find episodes there.
David Beckmeyer 00:57:59
You can find other work, and then you can also find the link over to the substack where I do some writing on substack as well.
David Beckmeyer 00:58:05
Well, and so that's the best place to start if you.
David Beckmeyer 00:58:09
All my contact is more Orlander, too.
David Beckmeyer 00:58:10
All my socials.
David Beckmeyer 00:58:11
But the socials are all Outrage Overload.
David Beckmeyer 00:58:14
So you should find me pretty much on Blue sky or Instagram or all the places.
David Beckmeyer 00:58:18
And if you want to email me directly, again, that's on the website too, but it's outrageoverloadmail.com so always, always love to hear feedback from real people.
Jesse Hirsch 00:58:28
Right on.
Jesse Hirsch 00:58:29
Well, thank you very much, David.
Jesse Hirsch 00:58:31
That's been, I think, a fantastic episode.
Jesse Hirsch 00:58:33
We've been really, I think, honored to have a lot of folks on our show who are on the front lines of the public education work that we need to be doing to really flip the script in terms of the direction our society's heading politically.
Jesse Hirsch 00:58:50
Thanks, everyone, for tuning in.
Jesse Hirsch 00:58:52
Metaviews.
Jesse Hirsch 00:58:53
We tend to publish as often as possible for the same reason that we are trying to counter the disinformation and nonsense that's out there.
Jesse Hirsch 00:59:02
You can reach us on metaviews on pretty much all the platforms that there are.
Jesse Hirsch 00:59:06
I'm Jesse Hirsch.
Jesse Hirsch 00:59:08
We'll see you soon.
Jesse Hirsch 00:59:09
All right, take care.
";}